Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: TerriR on March 14, 2009, 02:20:53 PM
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I have been trying to identify a plate that was my great, great, great Grandmother's. The plate is approximately 200 years old. It is a clear 11x7 plate with the Lord's Last Supper on it. I see no markings on this plate. I thought it might be Tiara glass, but I know that company only dates back to about 1896. Anyone with any information would be of great help. Thanks!
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It will be difficult to ID without a picture. BTW, Tiara started around 1970 in the US.
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Thanks for the response. I hope the pic comes thru okay.
Moderator: Copyright image removed
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TR — Welcome to the GMB.
There is thought to have been a large Last Supper platter made by Sowerby. Feel all over the upper surface, and you might find their trademark, a peacock's head over a twisted rope. Sowerby exported worldwide, so one could turn up anywhere.
... and beware of rock solid family history. Family histories can be great works of fiction, particularly when "shameful" events like illegitimacy, prostitution, conscientious objectors, criminals, mental illness and other disabilities have had to be excluded. There are few family histories that haven't been improved in some way! ;D
Bernard C. 8)
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The Model Flint Glass Co. of Findlay, Ohio, USA, first presented the Lord's Supper bread plate in 1891 -- not 200 years, but it is the earliest I know of. This information is from Measell and Smith's Findlay Glass. I do not know which colors were made, but if you know your plate is this old, then it is most likely Findlay glass. Measell and Smith write that the mould for the plate was made by Henry Coons in 1890 and there was excitement because it was an original and not a copy of an earlier work.
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BTW, Tiara Glass was a 20th Century glass distribution company. Tiara glass was sold using a Tupperware-party type model, if I understand correctly. Women would have Tiara glass parties and sell glass to their friends. Much of the glass was made by Indiana Glass, so you can find patterns listed both as Tiara and Indiana. I believe Tiara Glass was in operation for about 20 years (1970-80s). Members, please feel free to correct me if my dates are off. Tiara Glass sold Lord's Supper plates, but the quality was not as good as the original Findlay work.
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TR — Your picture shows the general type that regularly turns up in Britain in two sizes, a small one that could be 11cm x 7cm that is unmarked, and is often attributed to Sowerby, and a much larger platter, that could be 11" x 7", that is much more scarce, and might carry the Sowerby TM. If they are Sowerby, that colour dates from the introduction of their Tynesyde glass in the late 1920s at the earliest.
If you are certain about your family tradition, then the simplest explanation is a replacement for a broken piece.
Religious artifacts are difficult, generally unmarked, and rarely appearing in trade catalogues as they were sold in bulk to religious wholesalers.
Bernard C. 8)
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Thanks to everyone for the wealth of information! I will do some more research. I didn't see any trademark etc, but I'll investigate further!
My plate is 11x7 so it is the larger of the plates. My mother gave me the family history. She is still alive & 78 years old. She was 30 when she got
it from her Grandmother, who died when she was 100. I am still researching how old my great great grandmother was when she got it from my great great
grandmother.
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Hi Terri, welcome to the board!
In order to identify just the pattern I have dared to attribute mine like this:
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/02795.html
but it bears a huge ?
Good luck!
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TR — Your picture shows the general type that regularly turns up in Britain in two sizes, a small one that could be 11cm x 7cm that is unmarked, and is often attributed to Sowerby, and a much larger platter, that could be 11" x 7", that is much more scarce, and might carry the Sowerby TM. ...
Bernard C. 8)
Bernard, I wonder if Sowerby used the same moulds that Model Flint used. It would be nice to compare the different plates side by side. I was able to compare a Model Flint version to a Tiara Glass version. There was no comparison in the quality. The timing of production (Flint to Sowerby) made me wonder if Sowerby might have purchased the moulds or copied them.
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Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade here, but TerriR's image is an eBay one so there's a copyright question here - TerriR, is this your image or did you borrow it from an eBay sale? If you borrowed it, did you ask permission from the seller to use their image? If not, and if the image isn't yours, we'll need to delete it as per Board Policy: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6521.0.html
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I did get it from an eBay photo. I did not realize I needed permission. I couldn't get a clear shot of mine without glare.
By all means remove it. I'm sorry if I've done something I shouldn't have. I will try to get a good shot of mine & put it on.
Thank you so much for letting me know this. I do not remember reading it in the policy.
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I've learned a little more about the plates in the last hour. The Model Flint operations were moved to Albany, Indiana in 1893, two years after the production of the plates began. Production of the plates was later done by Indiana Glass, which continued production of them for 50 years. Indiana licensed the design for use by Tiara and probably made them for Tiara to sell.
The first plates made by Model Flint of Findlay are supposed to all have a pale halo emanating from the head of Jesus. It is not a ring like we see in pictures, but more a roughness of the glass to show the energy. I haven't been able to find a colored version of the plate yet, only clear or clear with flash.
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Dang, that'll teach me rely on my memory! :-[ It's not in Policy, it's in the Signup Agreement you agreed to earlier today when you joined, which says:
You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.
and the Copyright stickie at the top of the Help forum: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,24434.0.html
Just to clarify, any image which belongs to someone else must not be posted here without their permission unless it clearly states that the image is free to use (i.e. in the Public Domain or is Copyleft). Images from eBay are watermarked by eBay and may not be posted without the consent of the seller who owns those images.
For caution we'll remove the eBay image, if it's still available you can add a link to the sale to show the plate.
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Here's a pic I just took. Still has glare. I'll try to get a better pic, but this is the plate I have.
[one duplicate defective attachment deleted by admin]
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That's much better thanks. Also, this isn't the same pattern plate as the one you added the pic of earlier - that one had different corners - like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370159362856. Having a pic of your own item will help us give you accurate information. :)
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I am looking at the book The Beauty of Albany Glass and there is a picture of this plate in it. Albany made one but it had a different edge. It says the original plunger had the rays above the head of Christ but the replacement ones don't. The picture that looks like this one was made by Indiana Glass.
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I checked the Findlay glass book and saw that one of the plates pictured had an edge that was the same as the Indiana Glass pieces and the plate in this post. The halo would be a give-away that the plate was early. I don't know how many years it might have been found on the plates, though. Do you know if all the Albany plates had the halo. I couldn't find the information anywhere.
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This book says the Albany plate has the broken grapevine at the left edge of the plate, there are rays above the head of Christ, the clusters of grapes around the edge are more bunched and heavier and the grape leaves extend to the edge of the vine. Indiana changed the edge and the rays above the head are gone.
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So this is an Indiana Glass piece?
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Here is one in goofus by Indiana http://indianaglass.carnivalheaven.com/id187.htm (http://indianaglass.carnivalheaven.com/id187.htm).
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So the earliest this piece would have been introduced was 1888?
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Anne — Apologies, I should have noticed the eBay image.
Anita & Janice — Phew, I didn't know that this design was so universal! Here in Britain there are several well-documented examples of mobile moulds, so it occurred to me that one or more of these moulds could have been owned by a religious artifact factor, who moved it or them around, perhaps even internationally, to where he could get the best deal from a glassworks.
If either of you have general interest in religious artifacts, have a look at this mention of the Derbyshire trademarked Old Rugged Cross (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,18726.0.html), a real rarity.
TR — This topic has gone way beyond my experience now.
Bernard C. 8)
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It doesn't show where Terri lives and the one in the book looks like hers. The size is right so it's possible it's Indiana Glass.
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I agree, Janice. I was fairly certain the blue one that was removed was Indiana. About the poster's clear plate -- The grapes on the right side (looking down at picture) cut off a bit short of the ridge that separates the rim from the center. The Findlay plates in the book have grapes going all the way to the ridge. This makes me think Indiana even without being able to pick out a lot of detail in the pictures.
I had one of the Model Flint plates in hand one time. The detail of the grapes and other details was much greater for the Model Flint than for the Tiara. If I remember correctly, there were also more bubbles in the Tiara plate than in the Model Flint -- I am fuzzy on this, however, so I mention it with caution. Without a good comparison, it was difficult to tell someone to look for good detail. The characteristics you mentioned are much more helpful.
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It doesn't show where Terri lives and the one in the book looks like hers. The size is right so it's possible it's Indiana Glass.
Terri posts from the USA if that helps?
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If it's in the US then I think Indiana Glass is a good very possible. If anyone wants a scan of the page from the Albany book I can email it to them, just email me and let me know.
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I believe all of you have helped me tremendously. So, this plate, even though it is over 100 years old, has little or no value other than to family members?
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It is difficult to talk value for these vintage/antique pieces. If it is an Indiana Glass plate, there is not a huge market for it. Many plates were made, so it keeps the prices down. Your plate has great gift value, however. If you do not wish to keep it as an heirloom, it makes a great gift for a friend who has strong Christian beliefs. Then the value becomes the amount that you would have otherwise spent on a gift... :-\
Most pressed American glass is not valuable because many pieces were made over long periods of time. Often it is difficult to know exactly how old a piece is unless there is a characteristic that dates the piece -- e.g., colors, detail quality, glass chemistry. Does your plate have the characteristics that Janice mentioned for the old plates? If not, it would probably be difficult to put an exact age on the piece, so it will have the average value that you find online.
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I see no markings on the plate. Only that it's smooth on the top surface with the grapes/vines raised & the Lords Supper is indented in the back.
Thank all of you for such detail and information.