Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on May 04, 2009, 09:31:01 PM

Title: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Bernard C on May 04, 2009, 09:31:01 PM: Sorry, no picture as the camera is packed.

Neck is grey & black striped, body is grey scales on black with the scales turning white and ending with a tiny bubble. All thickly cased in crystal. No signature.

5" from beak to fan tail, 4¼" high, 1lb 1½oz 501g.

Any ideas?

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Ivo on May 04, 2009, 09:52:12 PM: Of course you know what we are going to say: We Will Need A Picture before we can begin to speculate about Marcolin or Formia.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Bernard C on May 04, 2009, 10:50:48 PM: I know, Ivo, it's just what I would have said. :(

I will try to find the camera.

Bernard C. ;D
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on May 19, 2009, 01:27:11 AM: Quote from: Bernard C on May 04, 2009, 10:50:48 PM
I will try to find the camera.
Bernard C. ;D

Did you find the camera? Any chance of a picture! ;)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Bernard C on June 01, 2009, 06:28:38 PM: Quote from: inca
... Did you find the camera? ...

No, it was packed below the tent in the car, and, once you have everything packed in the right order, you don't move it. So please excuse the interlude.

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0658.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-11681)

Click on the above image for picture gallery

... and apologies again to everyone for the delay.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: TxSilver on June 01, 2009, 09:36:11 PM: Ivo may have been on the right track when he mentioned Marcolin. I haven't seen your exact bird, but it looks like something FM Konstglas could have made. The only other company I know that did similar things is V. Nason of Murano.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 02, 2009, 12:20:24 AM: My guess would be V. Nason, Murano.

I don't think this is Marcolin/FM Konstglas or Formia.

I haven't seen much with the grey effect from Formia, here's a a Formia cat (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,24774.0.html) as reference.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Bernard C on June 02, 2009, 06:04:48 AM: Ingela — Thanks for the link — I knew I had seen the same style somewhere when I bought the pigeon, but I couldn't remember where.

In my opinion your cat and my pigeon are not only the same range from the same glassworks, but from the same gaffer. Checking Formia's website (http://www.formiaglass.it/) shows a identically shaped pigeon with the same cut fan tail on page 72 of their current liriche (lyrics) catalogue (sorry — I can't find a direct link to the page). My pigeon has a rib count at the neck of 16; what is the count for your cat?

What do others think? Am I correct in thinking that Ingela's cat and my pigeon are the same Formia range from the same gaffer, or is this a universal style that was made elsewhere?

Any enlightenment on pattern name and production dates?

Bernard C. 8)

Cautionary note: As I thought of this as a glass animal, not a PW, I put it on a south-facing window ledge. Yesterday afternoon I tried to pick it up, and it was too hot to hold, so I let it cool down very slowly wrapped in dry towels. I am supposed to be too experienced to make stupid mistakes like that!
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Ivo on June 02, 2009, 06:31:24 AM: seeing cat and Ingela's input I'd have no problem to define your pigeon as Formia.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Bernard C on June 02, 2009, 05:11:15 PM: Ho hum. Searches are much more productive if you look for Formia dove rather than Formia pigeon. What a difference a word can make!

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: pamela on June 02, 2009, 06:06:27 PM: Bernard, would have been able to burn down your home! (some fabrics in the same angle are enough to enlight these) (Seen and smelt that many many years ago)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 02, 2009, 10:51:06 PM: OK, the fan tail is similar but does that really confirm that it's Formia? IMO no.
What about the shape of the head, how the eyes are made, beak, the pattern of the grey effect,
the texture of the grey effect!!!

Regarding the grey effect there are some reference pictures here.

V. Nason, bird with grey effect (http://www.precisensan.com/antikforum/showpost.php?p=29320&postcount=127
/)

Marcolin/FM Ronneby, examples of the grey effect (http://www.precisensan.com/antikforum/showpost.php?p=30014&postcount=133
/)

I'm still leaning towards V. Nason, it might be Marcolin but IMO I doubt that this is Formia.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 02, 2009, 11:02:25 PM: some more V. Nason with the grey effect
(http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-Murano-Art-Glass-SIGNED-V-Nason-Fish-Sculptures_W0QQitemZ310143288520QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4835fb04c8&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116/)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: TxSilver on June 02, 2009, 11:24:05 PM: Bernard, I didn't access the catalog, so I am not sure what the picture of the Formia dove looked like. There are a couple of things that make me question. The eyes of your bird are deeply recessed and the forehead is high. The bill is small. Formia generally has applied eyes that are slightly recessed, smoothly molded forehead, and careful bills. Does the bird in the catalog have a head that is like yours. It may be worth my while to register to see it.

Formia makes several types of birds. Their San Marco doves have a body form that is similar to yours. However, the bill, eyes, and forehead are different. Perhaps it is one of their other doves??
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 03, 2009, 09:48:41 PM: Quote from: TxSilver on June 02, 2009, 11:24:05 PM
Bernard, I didn't access the catalog, so I am not sure what the picture of the Formia dove looked like.
It may be worth my while to register to see it.

You don't have to register to see the catalogue.

If you go to the page where you can browse the catalogue 'liriche'
press > under the picture of the catalogue (above the text: >> see whole collection liriche)
you can now browse the catalogue

If I'm not mistaken this is the bird that Bernard is referring to in the Formia catalogue, page 72.
http://www.formiaglass.it/formia/zoo/SanMarco1.pdf

Quote from: Ivo on June 02, 2009, 06:31:24 AM
seeing cat and Ingela's input I'd have no problem to define your pigeon as Formia.

What do you base this on? The grey effect?

Marcolin, V. Nason and Formia use the grey effect in their objects.
There are several different patterns of the grey effect and also the texture of the grey effect vary.

Ivo, you have no problem to define Bernard's pigeon/dove as Formia.
IMO it looks more like V. Nason or Marcolin and not Formia so I would love to hear how you came to your conclusion that this is Formia.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: TxSilver on June 03, 2009, 10:37:30 PM: Thanks, Inca. I thought it may be the San Marco models because of the wings. I think San Marco is really a pigeon, because pigeons are the doves hanging out in San Marco Square. So Bernard was probably right calling it a pigeon.

Bernard, check the head of yours against the picture. The position of the head may differ, but the eyes, slope of the forehead, and bill should match. I would say that yours is not the San Marco bird. I agree with Inca about the V. Nason or Marcolin (FM-K?).
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 05, 2009, 06:20:06 PM: Quote from: inca on June 02, 2009, 12:20:24 AM
My guess would be V. Nason, Murano.
I don't think this is Marcolin/FM Konstglas or Formia.
I haven't seen much with the grey effect from Formia, here's a a Formia cat (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,24774.0.html) as reference.

Quote from: Ivo on June 02, 2009, 06:31:24 AM
seeing cat and Ingela's input I'd have no problem to define your pigeon as Formia.

Ivo, I take it you were joking? :huh:

Or are you telling us that you compared both objects and found similarities, that the cat and
the pigeon have the same type of beak, fan tail, eyes and identical grey effect!
And from that comparison there is no doubt in your mind that Bernard's pigeon is made by Formia?

I would love to know how you came to this conclusion? ;)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Bernard C on June 06, 2009, 08:32:09 AM: Ingela — I don't know Ivo's thought processes, but I can assure you that Ivo rarely jokes about attributions. His reasoning may have been similar to mine.

When I look at glass, I try to visualise how it was made. This is not easy for me, not being trained in glassmaking, but I have taken every opportunity to watch glassmakers at work. This is the main reason for my several short "holidays" on Murano, one of which was notable as we actually failed to visit Venice — something which my long-suffering OH, Janet, has never let me forget!

So, what I see in your cat and my dove/pigeon is a deeply 16-ribbed opaque core with the ribs increasingly chopped up as you get lower, twisted and thickly cased in crystal. There are regular bubbles at the point of every scale/feather, although your cat has additional random bubbles. What we could then call the blank was subsequently worked up to the desired shape, and these two blanks are very similar indeed. You will recall my words — "Am I correct in thinking that Ingela's cat and my pigeon are the same Formia range from the same gaffer, or is this a universal style that was made elsewhere?" — covering myself in the event of this intriguing and attractive style being made by others. I thought it unlikely, as did Ivo. ... and we both seem to have been wrong!

Quote from: TxSilver on June 02, 2009, 11:24:05 PM
... Formia generally has applied eyes that are slightly recessed ...

Please take care with such generalisations, as it is a slightly different problem. From the doves I have seen on browsing around the Internet, I prefer — "On translucent pieces Formia generally has applied eyes". Even better — "Formia pieces usually have contrasting eyes". Applied eyes are likely to be slightly recessed, cause and effect. Punching the clear crystal casing through an opaque core is equally or even more effective — and a lot faster, taking perhaps two or three seconds, something of great significance to those paid piecework rates. And it will affect the shape of the head. So I don't consider this as particularly relevant to the attribution.

Has anyone any ideas on how we can reduce the three potential manufacturers down to one? I still prefer Formia because of the cut fan tail, but it would be pleasing to have rather more evidence to upgrade the attribution from "possibly Formia".

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Ivo on June 06, 2009, 08:45:53 AM: Seeing the doo my first reaction was "Marcolin" - but as Ingela was rather adamant it was not, it is not. My second choice was Formia - and the cat closed it. I've never seen this technique in a Nason piece, and the item seems a little simple for Nason.

Re eyes: both Formia and Marcolin used the punched eyes.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: TxSilver on June 06, 2009, 02:24:39 PM: Quote from: Bernard C on June 06, 2009, 08:32:09 AM
Quote from: TxSilver on June 02, 2009, 11:24:05 PM
... Formia generally has applied eyes that are slightly recessed ...

Please take care with such generalisations, as it is a slightly different problem.
Bernard C. 8)

Not to worry, Bernard. I rarely generalize without a mountain of data to support what I say. Birds were a very important money maker for Formia. There were some comic ones, but most were beautifully and carefully crafted with certain characteristics. They are recognizable on sight for a person interested in Murano. Your bird did not strike me as Formia, though I realized I could be wrong. Animals can be difficult. In my statement, I was referring to the eyes being slightly recessed, instead of deeply recessed. Your bird seems to have eyes that are rather deeply recessed -- not a characteristic I associate with Formia.

The charcoal gray sommerso pieces were done by a few people. I believe it is Ingela that has some pictures of some them in her Nason folder. None of the pictures are the same as your bird, unfortunately. I had one of the gray pieces that was in a diamond quilt pattern. I found some similar birds online that had a Barovier& Toso label. If that label was correct, then BT may have also done gray pieces. It would be nice to find a bird just like yours that is signed. I am curious.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 07, 2009, 01:16:34 AM: Quote from: Bernard C on June 06, 2009, 08:32:09 AM
Has anyone any ideas on how we can reduce the three potential manufacturers down to one? I still prefer Formia because of the cut fan tail, but it would be pleasing to have rather more evidence to upgrade the attribution from "possibly Formia".
Bernard C. 8)

Bernard, maybe we should try and date your pigeon. It certainly doesn't look like something Formia would make today.
If it for instance was made in the 1970's .... well, what type of birds did Formia make then? Anyone know?

I have an owl which I believe is Formia, it has no inscription/label. I have earlier considered V. Nason but I now lean towards Formia. I include a picture for you, you can also have a look in Formia's catalogue which shows a similar owl:
http://www.formiaglass.it/formia/zoo/Civette.pdf
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 07, 2009, 01:19:40 AM: I include some more pictures for you ......
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 07, 2009, 01:33:59 AM: Quote from: TxSilver on June 06, 2009, 02:24:39 PM
I had one of the gray pieces that was in a diamond quilt pattern. I found some similar birds online that had a Barovier& Toso label. If that label was correct, then BT may have also done gray pieces.

Now that is very interesting information!
Do you know of a site where we can see pictures of these birds?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: TxSilver on June 07, 2009, 02:40:37 AM: Ingela, I'm attaching a couple of pictures of one bird of the pair that I had. The birds have been a mystery to me. They have teal green in the glass around the gray middle. Leslie Pina shows birds like these on pg 95 of her book Fifties Glass. She writes they are possibly Seguso, but I don't think that they are. Another pair of this design was sold on eBay about two years ago. They had a partial green label that the seller said was Barovier & Toso, but I was not sure because the label was not in good shape. Maybe someone in the group will recognize the birds.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Bernard C on June 08, 2009, 02:23:59 PM: Quote from: Bernard C on June 06, 2009, 08:32:09 AM
... I still prefer Formia because of the cut fan tail ...

Compare the cut tail with this recently completed eBay auction (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290321174844) labelled Formia bird. You can see why I still prefer Formia.

Quote from: TxSilver on June 06, 2009, 02:24:39 PM
... In my statement, I was referring to the eyes being slightly recessed, instead of deeply recessed. Your bird seems to have eyes that are rather deeply recessed -- not a characteristic I associate with Formia. ...

Anita — I thought I had provided a possible explanation for the deeply recessed eyes — that punching the casing through the opaque core was bound to make the eyes deeply recessed, or, to put it another way, the depth was a function of the process used. Is there no merit in this?

Finally, I've been trying to figure out how the core was made. Is it possible to have a hybrid rib and controlled bubble mould, with one transforming into the other as you get lower down? I've found no evidence of such brass or iron pattern moulds being made on Murano, although some of the larger glassworks make their own wooden shape moulds, as evidenced by the hardwood logs soaking in water at the back of some. So, as usual, the rapid spread of this style to several glassworks can be reasonably confidently attributed to supplier reps.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 09, 2009, 12:41:37 AM: Bernard, when I look at the head (eyes+beak) of your pigeon/dove, then I would say that this could very well be Marcolin.
Looking at the grey effect, then I would say that this could be Marcolin or V. Nason.
The fan tail? Well, that suggests Formia.
I haven't seen the exact 'fan tail' in any of Marcolin's or V. Nason's birds but then I haven't seen everything made by Marcolin or V. Nason.

Regarding the eyes, from what I can see Formia now often use applied eyes but how about for instance 30 years ago? How did Formia's birds look then? If your pigeon/dove was made ?years ago (1970's?) then it does not give a correct comparison to look at Formia's birds of today.
And what about the colour of the dark inner core?
There are so many things to compare, and depending on when the item was made it can be very difficult to determine who made a certain object. Objects made in the 1970's does not look the same as the ones made today!
And the grey effect? When did Formia start using this grey effect?

Bernard, if you ever decide to sell your mystery bird ..... please let me know!

I included a picture of a dove in "post #20", here is another dove from Marcolin for comparison.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 09, 2009, 12:55:31 AM: Here is a bird with a similar fan tail but I hesitate to say that this is Formia because of the beak and the shape of the applied eyes.
I have never seen this type of beak/shape of applied eyes in any of Formia's birds!

Any suggestions who made this bird?
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 09, 2009, 02:01:15 AM: Quote from: TxSilver on June 07, 2009, 02:40:37 AM
Ingela, I'm attaching a couple of pictures of one bird of the pair that I had. The birds have been a mystery to me. They have teal green in the glass around the gray middle. Leslie Pina shows birds like these on pg 95 of her book Fifties Glass. She writes they are possibly Seguso, but I don't think that they are. Another pair of this design was sold on eBay about two years ago. They had a partial green label that the seller said was Barovier & Toso, but I was not sure because the label was not in good shape. Maybe someone in the group will recognize the birds.

Thanks for the pictures. Now that was quite interesting to see!

What is the colour of the inner core of your bird? Teal green?

Marcolin used very early on, coloured glass in the grey effect. The swan was made early 1960's.

Here's an owl with a similar grey/black effect, made early 1980's.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: TxSilver on June 09, 2009, 02:51:39 AM: Quote from: inca on June 09, 2009, 02:01:15 AM
Thanks for the pictures. Now that was quite interesting to see!

What is the colour of the inner core of your bird? Teal green?

The core is charcoal gray. The pattern appears to have been formed using a template (or form) in a pattern that expands to diamond quilt bullicante on bottom. Barovier & Toso used diamond quilt forms in making some of their d'oro bullicante bowls... but then I imagine many companies used them. The teal color is like a wash, instead of a layer, around the core.

The body of Bernard's bird is very Formia-like, but I still have doubts about the head. Maybe it is an earlier piece of theirs. I looked around a bit today, but came up with nothing new. I don't know if Marcolin did any pieces that has the fan tail like Bernard's bird does. All of the Marcolin pieces I've seen have folded tails.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: Bernard C on June 09, 2009, 10:15:04 AM: Quote from: inca on June 09, 2009, 12:41:37 AM
... Bernard, if you ever decide to sell your mystery bird ..... please let me know! ...

I can't — it's not mine to sell. It was a birthday present to my OH, Janet, arising from a family joke about a pigeon that follows us and arrives first whenever we go on holiday, and is known as "That bl**dy pidgeon", spelt the same way as all the "Please do not feed the pidgeons" notices on Murano. It's only the second really good piece of glass I've given her, the other being a lovely perfume atomiser made by the Walsh team at either the Walsh or the Tudor factory. It was accompanied by a kilo of finest Saudi Arabian dates, only small, but delicious. Isn't it strange how the best presents cost so little!

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: aa on June 09, 2009, 08:07:01 PM: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250437339423

I know this is not the same and I am a little sceptical about the attached story but this came up on the WF board.
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: inca on June 10, 2009, 02:54:19 AM: Quote from: aa on June 09, 2009, 08:07:01 PM
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250437339423

I know this is not the same and I am a little sceptical about the attached story but this came up on the WF board.

Looks like Ernest Gordon, Åfors
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: taylog1 on June 14, 2009, 06:34:54 PM: Yes Ernest Gordon - a second by the looks of the internal string of bubbles.
I would have said the lip was unintentional, other than I've seen another identical piece - I'll let you know what's on the bottom when I receive it later this week (paid too much, but needed it) :thup:.

Also this is of the same style - is it Italian as suggested ?
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/_shop/shop.php4?sid=wYgamhlp&kategorie=10&seite=artikel&offset=50&id=768&referer=liste

Gareth
Title: Re: Grey pigeon paperweight?
Post by: TxSilver on February 24, 2011, 02:21:41 AM: Quote from: TxSilver on June 07, 2009, 02:40:37 AM
Ingela, I'm attaching a couple of pictures of one bird of the pair that I had. The birds have been a mystery to me. They have teal green in the glass around the gray middle. Leslie Pina shows birds like these on pg 95 of her book Fifties Glass. She writes they are possibly Seguso, but I don't think that they are. Another pair of this design was sold on eBay about two years ago. They had a partial green label that the seller said was Barovier & Toso, but I was not sure because the label was not in good shape. Maybe someone in the group will recognize the birds.

Reviving this old thread with some recent news. I think this gray effect bird is VAMSA. I found a couple of birds -- one with a similar gray effect that had a VAMSA label and another that was of this shape that had a typical VAMSA sfumato internal decoration. I'm fairly confident of the attribution. Thought I would update this old record about the green bird. I've been looking for an attribution for years. The green bird is on page 2 of this thread.