Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: onlynsecret on May 25, 2009, 03:23:30 AM
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I have this vase that belonged to my grandmother or her mother, not sure. There are no marks on it except the numeric mark on the bottom. Does this mean anything to anyone? The flowers are etched and the gold is handpainted. The vase is dark green at the bottom and goes to clear around the middle. It stands approx 10 inches tall and 3.5" wide at its widest. Any help is appreciated! Thnx!
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I haven't seen this specific vase, but it looks similar to some of the Harrach vases I have seen. My main hesitation is that it has only a one-line alphanumeric designation, instead of two. The gold decoration around the base is very Harrach-like.
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Definitely a quality vase, surely a good bohemian maker, c1880-1920.
Possibly , as Anita says Harrach, or maybe Moser.
Have a search on here ,using search facility above,
heres one of mine,
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,18887.0.html
and google with those names.
try http://www.great-glass.co.uk/library/libindex.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~verredart1/glass/Harrach.html
and some of the links off these sites.
Good luck
Andy
8)
To Moderator.. Could we add Harrach Moser ?? in the header to give more info to the board members?
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Ask Moser directly - they will confirm or not.
Can I have my formerly purchased item identified by Moser?
Please send us a product photo and a shot of the company’s logo on the bottom of the product at customerservice@moser-glass.com, fax them at +420 353 449 619 or mail them at the address MOSER, a.s., Kpt. Jaroše 46/19, 360 06 Karlovy Vary, Czech Republic.
The third factory producing this quallity of glass was Mayers Neffe.
Jindrich
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Thnx everyone for your help, look forward to more suggestions. :)
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Thnx everyone for your help, look forward to more suggestions. :)
Do let us know what Moser say with regard to your vase. :)
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I have sent an email w/pictures to Moser and am awaiting the reply, I will post it when rcvd. Is it possible to do what Andy suggested?
"Good luck
Andy
To Moderator.. Could we add Harrach Moser ?? in the header to give more info to the board members?"
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Any possibility it could be EGERMANN SRO ? :huh: Whatever that means jp
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Not at all, Egermann s.r.o ...
see http://www.egermann.cz/
Jindrich
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I rcvd email from Moser today, I forgot I had resized the pictures to post here...ugh! I am going to re-send the pics to them to confirm but here is what they said:
Dear Kathy
Thank you for contacting Moser customer service.
The pictures are unfortunately very small for the exact identification, nevertheless our specialists assume it is Moser manufactured at the beginning of the last century.
We hope this information will be helpful to you.
With best regards,
--
Jitka Storkanova
Customer Service
MOSER, a.s.
Anyone have an idea or guess as to value?? Thanks again for all of your help!
Kathy
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Back to square one...any ideas??? .....
Dear Kathy
Thank you for the bigger pictures which helped a lot.
Based on the detailed identification of these bigger pictures our
specialists think it is not Moser. It is Art Nouveau style. However as
we can see the detail of the engraved motif from bigger picture, we
assume it is not Moser. This motif does not correspond to Moser style.
It was probably made in some of the Bohemian glassworks, however we unfortunately do not know in which exactly.
Yours sincerely,
--
Jitka Storkanova
Customer Service
MOSER, a.s.
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Hello, I am going to second Anita on the Harrach attribution. She voiced concern over the single line mark, but I found information at the Harrach project indicating that both Intaglio and Marquetry pieces by Harrach were marked with a single letter and a number following it. Some would have had Harrach in gold on the underside, but the absence of that on this vase is not surprising considering the vase underside is gold. The example on the site also has the same little double mark after the number. There are examples including green to clear and red to clear with the same color transition in the body of the piece. Apparently the Harrach Intaglio pieces are rare, and often confused with Moser!! The similarities are more than striking. I am going to go with Harrach on this one.....
Try going to this page and looking at the 5th, 6th, and 7th images on the page......
http://www.glasscollector.net/ProjectHarrach/ProjectHarrachGlassID.html
Craig
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Thanks Craig! I looked at the site and I think you're on to something. I will try to send the images there and see what they think but the letters & numbers look very similar. Thanks for you help!
Kathy :hiclp:
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Hi Kathy,
Please let me know what their response is. I will actually be quite surprised if they do not confirm the maker as being Harrach.... Certainly would not be the first time though....
Craig
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Craig,
I will let you know as soon as I hear anything. I found this item Ebay Item number: 270389163311 that also looks similar. Any idea of time frame or value?
Kathy
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Hi Kathy, I do not know about value... I would guess that the ebay piece is a little high.... I like your piece better. If I was bidding at auction, which is how I buy most of my stuff, I would expect to be in the $300-400 range to buy it, as long as there is no damage to it of any kind, other than maybe some light wear to the finish which is mostly expected. IMHO I would date it, based on the use of Nouveau appearing whips and the non-linear vase form to be in the 1890-1900 range. Ask the Harrach project and see what they say..... Some internet sites will not give values, but will help to date the piece....
Keep me posted.....
Craig
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Well....no reply so far from the Harrach project site wondering if he still even looks at it since the last additions to the site seem to be in 2006 :cry: . I do plan on listing this for sale either on Ebay or Rubylane and would rather have more concrete info on it but may have to fly by the seat of my pants :24: . Anyone else have any other ideas on where I might me able to research this? Thnx for all of your input!
Kathy
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I would think Riedel is much more likely than either Harrach'sche or Moser....
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Ivo ...have you looked at the Harrach examples Craig mentioned? The alpha-numeric signature and use of gold gild/intaglio is very similar.
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yes. But the flowers are etched not Intaglio and the decorator's marks are similar to other manufacturers at that time. I will believe it is Harrach when Brian says so - has anyone mailed him? Until then I would certainly not excluse Riedel.
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If Brian is the person who has the Harrach project website I emailed him about a week ago and have had no response.
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You said the flowers are etched not intaglio yet I can't seem to differentiate between the two according to the definition.... Types of intaglio include etching, engraving, drypoint, mezzotint, and aquatint. Can you please clarify?
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intaglio is by definition intrusive as material is removed. Matt etching (there are many types) is a surface technique. Deep etching using strong acids (such as used in Cameo) is another technique and will produce different results.
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Types of intaglio include etching, engraving, drypoint, mezzotint, and aquatint. Can you please clarify?
These are types of intaglio printing processes, a whole different medium. They have the same name because both refer to removal of material, as Ivo said (intaglio is italian for carving, incising, etc.). In printing it can be with acid or a tool, but in glass it's a form of wheel engraving, though sometimes people call pressed pieces intaglio as well.
Your flowers are intaglio, and I agree that Harrach is very likely.
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Hi
I'm pretty certain its a Harrach blank
Their shape, their coloway exactly (even the colour graduation goes the right way) -but the decoration almost certainly is not Harrach -quite the wrong kind of 'inaglio' work as has already been said. However Harrach sold undecorated blanks to loads of people -so this has probably been decorated by a second party. Hard to tell who -one possible name is Goldberg -only a guess - but they were a 'decorating' house that bought blanks and then copied many Moser and Harrach styles in their own way -usually less well - hence shallow etching rather than full on ingalio -having said that the Goldberg attributuion is pure speculation
cheers
Mike
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Welll.... now I'm even more confused if that is possible :huh: ... Thank you everyone for your help and input, as I said before, I am trying to get some info on the piece so I can sell it and all of your suggestions are very helpful. I will see if I can do anymore research and gladly welcome any and all opinions.
Kathy
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Hi Kathy,
if you sell it, give the glass message board a mention for their help ;)
and a link to this discussion will help to show the research youve done, and some of the
experts that have looked and given their opinion.
Good luck, its a nice item.
Regards
Andy
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This is a list of glass houses that used Harrach blanks. It is from the Harrach project page. What Mike say makes sense. It was difficult to see the depth of the engraving initially, but after the discussion I went back and copied them and enlarged them and they do not appear that deep. This would lead me in the direction of Mike's suggestion, that it is a Harrach blank decorated by a contemporary....
This list, per the Harrach Project page, is only a partial list.
Moser, Fritz Heckert, J & L Lobmeyr, Josephinehutte, Egermann, Goldberg, Muhlhaus.....
Craig
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Hi
Interesting! Not seen that list before - all makes sense....but you can cross Moser off the list of possibles as they ceased buying blanks (from Harrach or anywhere) in the late 1880s -when they got a licence to produce their owns glass and your pieces is c1900-1910.
I doubt its Lobmeyr or Harrach but the other 4 are all contenders
cheers
Mike
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Welll.... now I'm even more confused if that is possible :huh: ...
Kathy
Your confusion is understandable. The old Bohemian vases can be very difficult. Even the experts have had trouble attributing many of them. Many have attributed a piece of glass to a certain company, only to change their minds in later years. Reading books on Bohemian glass over the years shows the evolution in thought.
I checked a couple of books -- Truitt and Baldwin -- this morning that have some engraved Harrach vase. The depth of the engraving does not look consistent in the pictures. I wonder if depth of engraving can be used to filter out Harrach vases. I hope a Harrach expert is on the board that can give an idea on this.
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I know it isn't Moser because I emailed them directly and they said it was not their work.
Dear Kathy
Thank you for the bigger pictures which helped a lot.
Based on the detailed identification of these bigger pictures our
specialists think it is not Moser. It is Art Nouveau style. However as
we can see the detail of the engraved motif from bigger picture, we
assume it is not Moser. This motif does not correspond to Moser style.
It was probably made in some of the Bohemian glassworks, however we unfortunately do not know in which exactly.
Yours sincerely,
--
Jitka Storkanova
Customer Service
MOSER, a.s.
So we know what it isn't ... now to figure out what it is :)
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Kathy,
Sometimes the elimination of companies one by one is the only path there, or close to there....
I have some opalescent mid century stemware I have been working on identifying for 5 years.... and I know everything in the world they are not... but not what they are!!
The great thing about an ID challenge like this, is all that you learn, while learning what the piece is not!!
Craig
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Thnx Craig ... I am quite new to this and am astounded by the depth of knowledge here. I am also enjoying the hunt to figure it out, I just hope I hit the target before you :24:
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There is a photo of a Harrach mark on this page that looks very similar:
Mod: Link removed as content changed to inappropriate site
Even has the two dots at the end.
I agree that Harrach's intaglio is found in variable depths.
From above site:
"Gary Baldwin has hit on what appears to be a positive ID method for Harrach Art Nouveau Marquerty and Intaglio work glass. The Harrach pieces were typically marked with a letter followed by a number as seen above. "
Did no other Bohemian glasshouses mark their wares like this?
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Kathy, I have forwarded images of a couple of other vases to the Harrach Glass company. Jindrich was kind enough to provide a link. It did not have a direct email to the museum, so I sent it to another email within the company, and will see if they respond. If they do, I will copy a couple of your images to my desktop and forward them attached to another email and see if the museum will attribute them to Harrach or not. I will keep you posted as to my progress.
As to ingalio depth, I have gone on line and looked at the images of vases that appear on the Harrach project page I referenced for you, and their appears, at least in the images, to be varying intaglio depths showing there. In addition, I have also found a couple of attributions online which also show shallow Intaglio depths and include the same type of underside marking.
Although I think Mike has a valid point about Harrach blanks, because they sold them to a wide assortment of companies, I think I am going to stick, at least for the moment, with my original inclination to attribute it to Harrach. The underside mark, for one, bears too much resemblance to those shown on the Harrach project page. Although their are other companies that used the letter and number combination system. I find the use of the two dots after the number to be a little unusual, and possibly a unique identifier, especially in light of other similarities.
I will let you know if the Harrach company responds to my email regarding two other vases, which are completely different from this one, that I believe to be by them.
You can see them here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,26955.0.html
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Craig,
I also saw your pieces and Jindrich's response earlier and took it upon myself to try that also since I see so many similarities with the examples on the Harrach Project site. I am sure I did the same as you and just sent it to an anonymous office person but hopefully they will have the ability to get it to the right people. Thank you for helping, it's really appreciated.
Kathy
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Hi
this site too gives good info on the harrach codes -don't think anyones mentioned it yet
http://sites.google.com/site/bohemianglassandmore/harrach-alpha-numberic-markings-de-constructed (http://sites.google.com/site/bohemianglassandmore/harrach-alpha-numberic-markings-de-constructed)
cheers
Mike
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Thanks Mike .. I took a look at it and it's a great reference. The search continues!
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Craig,
Wondering if you heard anything from Harrach? I am still scratching my head over this.
Kathy
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I have not heard anything at all. Luckily at least one of mine was found in a book. I believe they are both Harrach..... If I do hear, I will let you know a contact email.
Craig
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Thanks very much Craig & good luck!
Kathy
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FRITZ HECKERT died in 1890. Three marks for him can be seen on porcelainmarksandmore.com. Sometime a sticker was used that says FH KUNSTGLAS on panelled & cobachon pieces that are almost always listed as moser glass.
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FRITZ HECKERT died in 1890. Three marks for him can be seen on porcelainmarksandmore.com. Sometime a sticker was used that says FH KUNSTGLAS on panelled & cobachon pieces that are almost always listed as moser glass.
I don't know where you folks get your information from (this isn't the first time that I've see this on this forum), but Fritz Heckert died in Munich, 22 February 1887, and not in 1890.