Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Rosie1 on July 14, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
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Hi,
I have this old glass which is in what I think, the bucket shape. It intrigues me as it has been hand engraved in what seems a very primitive & crude way.
It has inscribed Welsh wording - " Yfyn Dun, a fydd" (What God Wills, Will Be), then it has a scale showing on one side:-
Brandy - Somniferous
Port - Uprorious
Sherry - Glorious
Madeira - Talkative
Champagne - Fresh
Water - Comfortable
Then it has the name "Sarah Hanks"
Then on the other side it has:-
Nil Desperandum (latin of course for Never Despair) with a futher scale with a "Skull & Crossbone"
1 - Strangers
2 - Acquaintances
3 - Cousins
4 - Brothers & Sisters
5 - Friends
It is dated 1841 with a name which I can't make out and on underside of base it has "From EC (or GC) to SH". It is also adorned with scrolles & flowers. It has a rough, broken pontil and is 5.5" high.
I suppose what I would like to know is does the wording, type of glass etc correspond with the date 1841. I personally think the engraving does tie in with the date but wonder if it was done in some factory of the time or by someone just taking a glass and personalising it themselves.
Thanks in advance.
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If you post a larger, closer photo of the writing we might be able to tell you if it was done by someone at home, unaffiliated with the glass industry. Depends on the tool used to do it. Might help in dating it, as well.
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Hi,
I hope these pics look a bit better.
Thanks
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Well, I don't think it was a factory job. Looks quite amateur to me, plus it's not copper wheel engraved. In 1841 a diamond-tipped or steel pen would have been used for something like this. It looks deeper than I would have expected for that, but I don't have any experience with doing it myself and haven't seen a wide range of examples of it. The other possibility is that it's newer, and done using an electric engraving pen. It does kind of look like that, but it's hard to tell; under a magnifying glass, though, you might be able to see tiny "jerks" of the spinning wheel on the pen catching the glass. Hopefully someone else can tell you more.
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I like your glass Rosie, nice bit of 'folk art'. Although the glass looks Victorian at first glance (I know little about old drinking glasses) I reckon the engraving is fairly modern, maybe within the last forty years or so. This is just a guess and partly based on the language used and also the decorative parts of the engraving. It would not surprise me if it had been produced by a student at an art colledge. This does not reduce it's appeal at all as far as I am concerned.
I have to state again that this is all guesswork on my part!
Does anyone out there know more about the style of glass itself, is it a Rummer?
John.
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Hi Rosie
This is a bucket bowl rummer dating any time from C1820; but more likely C1820-40 and therefore the engraved date ties in with the likely date of the glass. It is diamond point engraved by an amateur engraver and we can see that it is a gift from one to another. The engraved script looks period though there is nothing specifically that proves or disproves this. The cartouche, foliate wreaths and garland of flowers etc are what you might expect to see on a professionally copper wheel engraved rummer of the period and such an item may have provided the inspiration for the basic design and decorative motifs; though the engraved detail and sentiment in the script is not a copy of a professionally produced item. Engraving doesn't age; it just gathers accumulated muck etc within its surface. This can be artificially applied; conversely a good clean will remove genuine accumulations. Therefore there is no real way of determining whether the engraving was applied in 1841 or 1941, or to take things to extremes 1641. All that can be questioned is does the method, style and sentiment of the engraving tie in with the date of the glass; and in this case I believe it does. I've had a few glasses engraved and personalised like yours from this period. Glasses are also found more simply engraved with just the owners name or initials and sometimes the name of a tavern. For some at this time a glass like this would be a prized possession. Commercially; engraving like this doesn't do anything to enhance the value of a glass from this sort of date (though it would if it was older). In fact; for most collectors they would pass this one by in preference for an unengraved glass. I think this ignores the social history interest of an engraved glass such as this. I'd be tempted to try and find out who Sarah Hanks was in Wales in 1841 and what was the glass given to her for? Her 18th/21st birthday? An interesting glass.
Cheers.
Trev.
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Thanks Trev,
These are my feelings and sentiments too. I think it is lovely just for what it is and what it would have meant to the person receiving it. I will try and do some research for the family. I live near Wales so shouldn't be too much trouble - hopefully.
Thanks again to you and all the people that have helped. This site is really great.! :hiclp:
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Just a point on the Welsh - it should be "A fyn Duw, a fydd" (What God wills, will be). The use of both Welsh and English is not surprising in the context of an 1841 date, and the English terms are consistent with the sort of language used in this period. It is quite likely to have been a love token from EC to Sarah Hanks.
I think the Welsh Folk Museum in St Fagans (www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/stfagans) might well be interested in seeing pictures. Can I ask you to post pictures here which show the the details of the inscription in full - and I'd suggest something dark inside the glass to prevent the inscription on the far side of the glass interfering with my attempts to read!!
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Rosie — See the two pictures here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,28056.0.html) showing the dramatic improvement Dave made when he stuffed a black sock in it, so to speak! ;D
Bernard C. 8)
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I think the Welsh Folk Museum in St Fagans (www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/stfagans) might well be interested in seeing pictures. Can I ask you to post pictures here which show the the details of the inscription in full - and I'd suggest something dark inside the glass to prevent the inscription on the far side of the glass interfering with my attempts to read!!
How spooky malwodyn :o I was going to mention that this glass is just the sort of thing a related folk museum might be interested in. I've sold a similar amateur engraved early 19th C rummer with references to a village in Norfolk to a guy that buys for the Norfolk Museum.
Rosie — See the two pictures here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,28056.0.html) showing the dramatic improvement Dave made when he stuffed a black sock in it, so to speak! ;D
Bernard C. 8)
Good tip Bernard. Using the set-up you have Rosie; bouncing some direct light onto the engraving would help also.
Trev.
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Hi again,
some more pics as requested.
Thanks
Rosie
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And some more ....!! :D
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Rosie — The part of the inscription I can see on the last picture above looks as if it is:
- 1841 IAPC del.
The "del." is an abbreviation for the Latin for "delineated by", and so this translates to:
- 1841 engraved by IAPC
What is on the remainder of this line?
Bernard C. 8)
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Hi Bernard,
I am not very good at making out the last word (name) so here's some close ups... All I can decipher for sure is a capital S.
Thanks
Rosie
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Quite a love token that would be, when the point beyond "Friends" is denoted with a skull and crossbones! Perhaps it's a token of consolation from friend to friend?
I wonder if it's significant that "Champagne" is spelled the old French way, "Champaign." Maybe not, since Madeira is spelled "Maderia."
At any rate, it's a nice piece of history!
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I read the final line as
1841 IAPC del. et scr. - IAPC del[ineat] et scr[ipsit] - IAPC drew and wrote [this] 1841
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Thank you so much for your help and to everyone else who have taken an interest. :hiclp:
Rosie