Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: jonchellycain on July 25, 2009, 06:16:23 PM
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Hi there
i picked up these 2 Dartington sharon wine glasses.. nothing unusual there i hear you say, but they both have acid etched or sand blasted (not 100% sure which, but i'd guess at acid) flower designs on them and both have a signiature and number to the base at the top of the signiature is what looks like a U L joined together underneath is HEMMES ??? maybe HEMUES ?? under that is 106/2,500 R.A.
Both the etched design and the signiature look very very professional to me.. does anybody have any idea if these would have been done when made or something as simple as done later by an engraver... but why the numbers if so??.
The lady i bought them off said they where he girlfriends mum and dads and they got them when new she thinks in the 1960's, but they where only designed in 1970, so she wasnt to far out. i will try my best to get a decent picture of the signiature unfortunitly because of the concave base i cant get a scan.
many thanks in advance for any info
michelle
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base signature
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The number is the edition number. 106 out of 2500
I would suggest that RA might stand for Royal Academy as it is in the same hand as the signature. It might be worth seeing if there is an online list of members
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Now off the top of my head didnt they have some students working at Dartington from the Royal Academy? or am i thinking about Michael Harris?
Just quickly off the subject ive got a couple of Uranuim pieces i will be adding later that i would love your opinion on and im 100% sure they are uranium this time ;D
cheers
michelle
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here is a list of all the H's on the list (not sure if this is a comprehensive list but its all the have on there website);
Zaha Hadid RA
Nigel Hall RA
David Hockney RA
Michael Hopkins RA
Ken Howard RA
John Hoyland RA
Gary Hume RA
Paul Huxley RA
I think the only one it could be (if any would be Gary Hume RA) but from what i can make out he is just a painter.
I have emailed them to see if anybody would be able to help and will let you know if they reply
many thanks
michelle
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RA doesn't have to be Royal Academician, although that is a possibility. What about the initials that look like CL at the top.
Could these have been, say, a wedding present for someone with the initials CL marrying someone with the initials RA?
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Hermes?
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with regards to the initials could be but i think it would have been laid out so the initials where together with a & inbetween possibly, for how well its been done, i dont think the base would be as dis-jointed if you catch my drift..
It could well be Hermes, not sure if they engraved, looking at Ivo's book just mentions dealers of tableware from france unless ive got the wrong one ;D will look them up and see if i can get some info
many thanks
michelle
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Hi,
Obviously the signature/marks will reveal all eventually, but one needs to look in the right place.
My first point of call here would be Dartington. Regardless of whether it is acid-etched or sandblasted, a resist or template was used, and quite a nicely thought-about one in my opinion. Individuals have decorated drinking glasses for decades, (small) companies other than those who made the blank more recently. I'd guess that if it was either technique, it would have been a small company, or else a person with access to the facilities neded to execute either technique. Perhaps Dartington know if they sold a batch to a particular person/company for decoration? Particularly if it was an order for a supposed limited edition of 2,500 - more than the average family would buy! If not, maybe they know who did it - the people Eve and I dealt with down there seemed to be very much 'on the ball'. Or else, perhaps they know nothing and the blanks were bought 'blank', so to speak.
I could be horribly wrong, but I think the R.A. is an unlikely target. Firstly, it was the R.C.A. (Royal College of Art), rather than the R.A. (Royal Academy) that Harris, Herman and others in the glass movement were involved with. Yes, the R.A. has probably sold some glass in the past, but I'd veer towards the R.C.A. as it doesn't seem like these came from there to me. Maybe I'll be surprised...
Blimey, I've not been much help! Sorry, but this is just my opinion and is only intended to help narrow down options.
Mark
As a postscript, factory cut and engraved Dartington drinking glasses are very rare. Another person you may wish to try is Peter Robinson, who is the ex-sales Director of Dartington Glass. I don't have his contact details to hand, but he does attend a number of the major glass fairs. It may be out of his period, as he left at some point, but he is certainly worth a go. He's also a particularly marvellous chap!
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Fantastic news everybody ive just had this reply from The Royal Academy;
Dear Miss Reader,
The etched glasses that you have acquired are etched with images by Gertrude Hermes, R.A.
In 1981 the Academy mounted an exhibition of the artists work in celebration of her 80th birthday. The artist agreed to have images of her work engraved on a series of Dartington Glasses and sold as limited edition to help raise money for the Royal Academy Appeal Fund. The goblet is hand made in 24% lead crystal and was designed by Frank Thrower.
The Appeal Fund was established to raise funds for the Academy which was in serious financial difficulty at the time.
I have attached a short biography of Hermes that I hope will complete the picture for you.
Regards
Andrew Potter
Research Assistant
Royal Academy Library
Oh im soooo pleased and quite surprised as i really thought it would just end up as an unknown or that they had been done by somebody in there shed ;D, thanks everybody for your help
Michelle
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how on earth do i even begin to value these????? anybody have any ideas?
thanks michelle
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:clap: :clap: Can I have a gold star for pointing you at the RA?
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:clap: :clap: Can I have a gold star for pointing you at the RA?
;D If so, can I share it with you? ;) :angel:
Hermes?
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very well done to both of you...fantastic result, you are both very clever ;D i would go as far as diamond encrusted gold stars each ;D.
Art & paintings are not my thing so had never even heard of Hermes before
:thup: :thup: :thup:
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This is fascinating, congratulations on spotting them and finding this out. Hermes isn't a name I know at all, which means nothing, but that explains perfectly why they were made and what for. Another little, but vital, fact that would probably have otherwise slipped into the mists of time to be forgotten. As to their value.....well, that's anyone's guess. Have you tried the Art Sales Index to see what the rest of her work goes for? If there's a sizeable following, then they could be desirable, especially if there are more than 2,500 people who want to own an example of her work. Or even, more than 416 people who want to own her work AND like giving dinner parties...
Whatever, cut/etched/engraved Dartington Sharon glasses are very rare!
Best,
Mark
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Many thanks Mark, im still struggling to find much information on Hermes, ive found 7 pieces of her work which have sold all between $500 and $10,000 (us dollars) which i found through the art sales index between 1989 and 2003 The works sold are drawings and sculptures.
http://artsalesindex.artinfo.com/artsalesindex/asi/searchresults
I think my next step would be to contact an auction house with a specialist glass sale??, although this crosses over with sculpture and i wouldnt imagine many collectors of Hermes would be checking the glass sections.... ohh im all a dither of what to do :chky:
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Thinking fairly (so providing three alternatives) UK auction house wise, I could personally recommend:
Will Farmer at Fielding's
Michael Jeffrey at Woolley & Wallis
and Simon Cottle at Bonhams in London.
You may also want to try exemplary dealers Nigel Benson (on this board) and Jeanette Hayhurst as starters, but there are many many others. Why not come along to the Cambridge Glass Fair or the National Glass Fair where you'll meet more than you can shake a blowing iron at!
Sorry if I've missed anyone off :-\
Mark
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Hi Mark, ive missed the last 2 fairs due to work but i will be coming to this one :hiclp:, funnily enough i have just spoken to Bonhams, they put me through to the Bury office i will be taking them to a valuation morning they hold at cambridge this wed.
I will make sure to bring them with me for closer inspection at the glass fair.
many thanks again
michelle
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Michelle contacted me for help/comment, and this was my reply, with some minor changes made on re-reading:
Hello Michelle,
I read this thread when it first started and noted Adam's one word answer at the time. Often the less said the more it means I find!!
I my experience valuing glass by people who are usually artists is always difficult, but I'm afraid I feel strongly that Mark is wrong to suggest you use the Art Sales Index (sorry Mark). It talks about the work sold by artists as paintings, or sculpture and is therefore definitely only a means of finding an upper estimate for a piece of glass - possibly. It is used to compare like with like, so for instance, a picture of a given size and of a given topic will compare similar in price to one that has similar dimensions and subject matter - but not if either is different. Also the price may change according to when, or where, an item is sold. Yet all are what the artist might be recognised and collected for.
Essentually you should be comparing like with like, or at least similar with similar, since the markets for art are usually considerably different to those of glass in my experience I would say that although it may help, it is only a very rough estimate for our purposes.
Glass therefore becomes an academic 'add on' to their work - especially if it is sold as something to help promote an exhibition or show. This seems to apply however aesthetically pleasing an item might be.
Just as estate agents compare similar houses in a given area to gain a reasonable estimate of what another house might be worth, so you will need to do with these glasses. When it goes outside those parameters experience kicks in, and becomes highly relevant.
Do not assume that they are worth what a picture by Hermes is. There is precedent for this proposition with, for instance, the work of John Hutton, even though many of his vases are individual items - and he is a glass artist/engraver, but on a large scale, such as Coventry Cathedral. Certainly, it is also true of the work of the artists who designed for pieces by Stuarts at the seminal exhibition held at Harrods in 1934.
The long and short of it is that providing you make a fair profit, then don't worry if you don't get every penny it 'could' be worth. There's an old saying in the antique business "always leave a profit".
Nigel
PS. Silly me!! Of course I would be very interested to see them in the flesh at Cambridge, so do pop by the stand Michelle. Kind wishes, N.
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Just thought of a very good example to illustrate my point.
A Picasso picture, or engraving, is definately worth more than any of his glass designs (or pottery designs for that matter), by a large proportion :o ;)
Nigel
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Thanks for that Nigel, I know what you mean about the last penny i often sell to dealers and as long as i make my pennies am happy. The problem with these glasses is even guessing a value is completly out of my brain power.
I will certainly be bringing the glasses to the fair... one problem... i dont know what you look like :-[ or your stall, i said on the GMB cafe thread about the fair i think we should all make our own GMB badges with our user names on that way i will know who everybody is ;D
Im having a valuation done by Bonhams on wed so will let everybody know what they say although i think it may well be a bit of a guess on there part too as finding any documented evidence of the glasses appears to be quite hard, so finding any which have been sold maybe almost impossible
Michelle
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Hi Michelle,
Photo of me on Cambridge Glass Fair site under the Exhibitor Interview archives:
http://www.cambridgeglassfair.com/interviewarchive/int-nigel-benson.htm (http://www.cambridgeglassfair.com/interviewarchive/int-nigel-benson.htm)
I'm on the wall at the far end of the main hall, usually, Stand 11.
Often folks have made up GMB badges in the past so that they can be identified, so that's not such a bad idea.
I look forward to hearing about the result of your visit to Bonhams.
BTB, it might be an idea to contact the RA again and ask if they have any records about the prices asked for the glasses at the time - even though it was 28 years ago, it could be helpful. It might have been a sort of open lottery/auction whereby buyers donated a minimum price, with the hope that they gave more, which would make things more arkward!! (That scenario just flitted through my mind, so I threw caution to the wind and suggested it!) It would give a touch-stone if they could let you know.
Cheers, Nigel
PS. Take the hat off and I look a tad less hairy on top :huh:
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I saw a glass vase by a different RA member on ebay about...umm...18 months ago. Can't remember the artist, but it had a fired-on motif of a stylised bird on it. It was signed by the RA member underneath. I don't think it made an awful lot of money in the end, although I remember wondering whether to buy it as it was signed by someone quite well known. :-\
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I saw a glass vase by a different RA member on ebay about...umm...18 months ago. Can't remember the artist, but it had a fired-on motif of a stylised bird on it. It was signed by the RA member underneath. I don't think it made an awful lot of money in the end, although I remember wondering whether to buy it as it was signed by someone quite well known. :-\
Was it a pink vase and by Craigie Aitchison? with a canary?
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:hiclp: That's the one Adam! I did have a look through Google but didn't manage to find it! Come on, fess up, how'd you do it? :huh: :huh:
Edit: Not sure the vase was pink though...although not sure. The name's right though. :D
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Ok the guy at Bonhams had no idea, and just said they would be best in a specialist glass auction or maybe even ebay as you have a wider market. Unfortunitly he was a general valuer and wasnt really hot on glass. He said that Hermes is a very popular artist and quite well known/collected and that her work generally made good prices.
So we are kind of no further ahead at the moment.
I sent The Royal Academy another email a few weeks back asking if they had anymore detailed information on the glasses so hopefully i should hear back from them.
michelle
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:hiclp: That's the one Adam! Come on, fess up, how'd you do it? :huh: :huh:
Edit: Not sure the vase was pink though...although not sure. The name's right though. :D
Ahem...the thing is I have done some work from time to time with museum shops such as the RA, BM, National Gallery etc in the UK and other noted museum shops in the US, including the Museum of Art and Design, MOMA, Guggenheim, Cooper Hewitt among others and the vase that Max referred to was a small edition that was commissioned by the Royal Academy. I worked with Craigie Aitchison to produce those vases, which were a sort of pink/ruby with an applied transfer of a yellow canary on a branch.
:)
In fact visitors to the British Museum this autumn http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/future_exhibitions/moctezuma.aspx may find some vases and paperweights that I have recently made. These are not yet online but the paperweights that I made earlier this year for the Shah Abbas exhibition can be seen here on this amazingly long link!!
http://www.britishmuseumshoponline.org/bin/venda?ex=co_wizr-locayta&template=wz_locayta&pageno=1&perpage=20&collate=ivtype%3Acat%3Apdxtpricecat%3Apdxtexhibition%3Apdxteventtype%3Apdxtmemtype%3Apdxttheme%3Apdxtgiftrcpnt%3Apdxtworldculture%3Apdxtarttheme%3Apdxtbooksubject%3Apdxtjewellmaterial%3Apdxtornamenttheme%3Apdxtpostcardtheme%3Apdxtstationerytype%3Apdxttoystype%3Apdxttypebook%3Apdxttypeca%3Apdxttypedvd%3Apdxttypefood%3Apdxttypejewellery%3Apdxttypekh%3Apdxttypeornmet%3Apdxtobjecttype%3Apdxtobjectartists%3Apdxtcountry%3Apdxtdate&refine_sort_alph=&setsortorder=price%2Cname&setsortprice=descending&setsortname=descending&setsortrelease=ascending&fieldrtype=type&termtextrtype=invt&typertype=exact&fieldcatrestrict=xancestorid&termtextcatrestrict=shop&typecatrestrict=exact&typekeywordsearch=keyword&termtextkeywordsearch=adam+aaronson&searchsubmit=Search