Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ivo on October 10, 2009, 04:32:21 PM
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Strange machine in cobalt blue glass with metal fittings. What is it for? From the making I assume it is from the late 19th/ early 20th century. Is it medical?
Markings on the bottom of the bottle - any suggestions?
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I'll venture a guess - maybe it's used to mix chemicals, medications, or biological samples in a measured way without being exposed to them?
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Barry (the former industrial chemist sat beside me!) says it looks like some type of early venturi pump, so he's thinking laboratory rather than (personal) medical, but an end-on view of the metal work might help.
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Can we see it without the glass on it. I am interested in what, if anything extends into the bottles, and what the underside of the portion that the bottles screw on looks like. My suspicion is that it is for creating some sort of low pressure, or high pressure in one of the bottles..... but I would like to see more of the workings... It is an interesting item.
Craig
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Craig, that's what Barry was saying too. He thinks the larger chamber is air and the smaller one takes the liquid, the the sprung assembly pressurises the large one which then is used to spray the contents of the smaller one.
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Why blue glass? Would the contents have degrade if exposed to too much light?
Just questions, no answers. :-[
John
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The short piece of pipe extending from the top of the smaller unit looks to me like it could be a connector one would attach a spray line or pressure line of some sort to..... More pictures from all angles without the glass is what is needed......
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Blue and green glass often indicated toxic substances, John. Both colours were commonly used for poison bottles, for example, but it could be to protect the contents from light spoilage as well (that's why brown ones are used for medicines and beer now.)
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Paint or fixative sprayer is another possibility. There were some weird designs over the years. The pump should be an air pump, look for leather cups and non return valve at bottom of pump. A separate release button to allow the air to flow across the top of the small container.
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I've not yet taken delivery, so no idea what the function is. Will come back with more photographs in a week or so.
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Ready for the sequel? The machine has arrived and is absolutely weird. I hope these details will enable you to figure out which leprous distilment is produced.
The plunger does two things. It lowers what looks like a zinc plate (Anode?) inbetween two probable carbon plates (Cathodes?) and is therefore looks a bit like a Leclanché cell - an early battery invented 1866 according to wikipedia. And it opens the valve on top of the side capsule.
There is no electrical connection to be seen - but it looks like an electrolytic or galvanic device. My resident scientist wonders if it could be used for producing a gas- Cl, H, O who knows.
What happens if the machine is used is:
- a liquid (acid?) is electrolysed; the gas escapes though the opened valve
- after the zinc plate has been raised, the valve closes.
The small capsule was sealed airtight in the thread (remains of sealant suggest this). In the cap there are two holes: the one which is closed off when electrolysys stops; and the other which is a tiny pipe sticking up. Not sure if this was connected to a flexible tube, or if it is purely an escape - perhaps even a burner.
Possibly the use was medical, but laboratory or teaching use cannot be excluded. Total height is 22 cms, 8.3/4"; the length of the side capsule is 3". Age wise it looks like something out the late 19th century or early 20th - but again, we could be worng.
Looking forward to the solution of this mysterium.
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Ivo, this morning I've sent you the link to private museums in Hamburg regional pages of DIE WELT. Do you want me to ask Mr. Putz, whether your machine is a galvanic lighter also? ;D
http://www.welt.de/hamburg/article4938328/Mein-kleines-Museum.html (for those who do not read German: no picture of the lighter collection, pics 4+5 are pressglas-pavillon)
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Aber bitte, Pamela, schick ihn ein Link. Right now the item is under study by our local science museum http://www.museumboerhaave.nl/ - but all help is welcome.
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Ivo,
Mr. V. Putz just called back and confirms :hiclp:
it is a galvanic lighter or galvanic lamp.
He has got several of these in different glass colours, one even in original box with French wording.
He would say yours is end of 19th century, the technique itself is obviously much older.
He will post me copies of an explanatory article on this subject by another German collector which I will scan and upload with all necessary copyrights :D
I'll get back to you soon 8)
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BRAVO!
Knowing what it is, I googled myself silly but I am just not getting anywhere.
http://www.ijon.de/sonst/feuerg.html mentions the Fürstenberger and Döbereiner Feuerzeuge - and the later galvanic ones introduced around 1900. it would probably be one of those.
I am most impressed.
:hug:
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Congrats on an ID Ivo! What is a galvanic lighter??
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Ivo — I'm sure I've seen something similar, but couldn't remember where. However with the mention of light, my having worked in the coal industry, and my interest in the Purbeck ball clay mines, perhaps it's not surprising. Background lighting for underground roadways, perhaps? Possibly in collieries or sewers where there is a fire risk from a naked flame? You might consider contacting a mining museum.
Bernard C. 8)
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I realise the link in German may present some problems, so here is an English translation of same... I'm not sure which one of these is the one under discussion, but it seems the function is a bit clearer now.
Electrically lit lighters, Fürstenberg lighters
In electrical lighters, hydrogen was ignited by an electric spark. Johannes Fürstenberg marketed these from 1780. In a recipient, a piece of zinc was lowered into sulphuric acid which generated hydrogen. The hydrogen accumulated in a dome, and forced the acid into a glass cylinder. The hydrogen could then be released by opening a valve. The acid in the cylinder ensured the required pressure.
An Electrostat (such as a block of resin in a metal plate) was now charged by rubbing it with a fox tail. Then the valve was opened, it moved along a brass bar which discharged the electrostat in such a way that the ensuing spark lit the hydrogen. A carefully designed Fürstenberg lighter worked very well, and was odourless (unlike chemical lighters). Disadvantages were the high price, the problematic portability and the fiddly refilling of acid.
The Döbereiner Lighter
The principle of the Fürstenberg lighter was improved by Döbereiner. In stead of an electric spark, the hydrogen was lit by directing it towards a platinum sponge. This caused a catalytic oxidation. The release of energy heated the platinum until the hydrogen ignited.
Döbereiner lighters were sold in Germany between 1827 and 1880, and were found in many of the more affluent households in Germany and England. Even if there were numerous accidents with exploding hydrogen, they were very popular.
Lighters with galvanic elements
At the end of the 18th century, Luigi Galvani invented the so called galvanic elements, and already in 1823 these were used to make lighters. The current which was generated was led over a platinum wire, which heated up and started to glow. The glowing wire could be used to light a tinder, a sponge or a hydrogen flow.
Such galvanic lighters were only manufactured comercially from around 1900. In 1909 a galvanic pocket lighter (with lint) was brought on the market.
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... You might consider contacting a mining museum. ...
Ooops, perhaps not! :spls:
Bernard C. ;D
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Thanks for the explanation Ivo. :thup:
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Mind boggling, they must be rare beasts. Just think of all the smokers that got blown away along with their lighters :24:
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Ivo,
Mr. Putz copied this from "Brandstifter" Führer des Niederrheinischen Museums Kevelaer, Goch 2002
Copyright of pages attached as .jpg:
© http://www2.bsz-bw.de/bibscout/ZG-ZS/ZS/ZS7600-ZS8200/ZS.7700/present?PRS=XML&SID=23a04b68-2f1&SET=1&FRST=14&COOKIE=U998,Pbszgast,I17,B0728+,SY,NRecherche-DB,D2.1,E23a04b68-2f1,A,H,R193.197.31.108,FY
(I hope scans work, as I can only control this after posting :sleep: - if not I shall mail big files directly to you)
Additionally today I googled the following - have you seen these too?
http://www.gnegel.de/feuerzeug.htm
http://www.gnegel.de/feugalvanisch.htm
8)
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oops, too quickly posted :spls:
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Absolutely fan-tas-tic - I even understand how it works. It must be one of the most obscure objects I have ever come across and I am seriously indebted to you for this magnificent piece of historical detective work.
:hug:
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Wow! This is fascinating, I'd never have figured this out in a million years. Thank you Pamela and Ivo for such an interesting topic.
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And here is the english version of the above text, for the germanically challenged:
Galvanic lighters count as subset of electrical lighters. The first galvanic lighter was presented by the English physic William Hyde Wollaston (1766-1828). In his machine presented in 1815 a currant is generated between 2 different (zinc and copper) metal plates dipped in acid. The current makes a platinum wire glow which lights the wick of an oil lamp. His contemporaries did not have a high opinion of this. It was "more of scientific interest than of practical use". Biedermann (1859) was negative too. Gnegel says not a single one of these early items survived. Apparently only prototypes were built which were more like test set-ups. Their value for science is not contested though, but in households they were hardly functional.
Only at the end of the 19th century this idea was reused. Apparently the model shown here was prduced in larger numbers. The lighter is from France, some copies are embossed "Luminus". In the large glass container are the acid and the metal plates, here carbon and zinc. The smaller container contains lighter fluid and a two wicks. By pressing the lever the zinc plate is lowered into the acid. The electricity generated makes a platinum wire at the small bottle glow. First the smaller wick is lit, which in turn lights the larger wick. By letting the lever come up again, the smaller wick is covered, but the larger one stays lit.
Zistl (1896) warns that these lighters are problematic because the temperature distance between sufficient glow of the platinum wire, and the melting temperature of same is very low. Also, the acid ate the metal plates. Gnegel believed therefore that this lighter was only a marginal product. Bisconcini, who celebrated the machine as the first electric table lighter which "succesfully linked a whole series of new ideas to the revolutionary invention of the battery" - thinks it was limited to France. Gnegel doubts this and shows an advert from the Berlin firm Hermann Lax in the year 1909, in which a very similar machine is depicted ("Electric Cigar lighter") in which no mention of France is made at all. But we cannot conclude firmly that the offered model is not of French provenance.
Both the year of introduction and the graphics of the advert make it probable that the Berlin firm played the general indignation of the population about the recently introduced tax on matches in the German Reich, in order to bring a technically obsolete invention to the cigar smoker for profit. The reference to expenve matches cannot be overseen. In this matter Gnegel was right: these galvanic lighters were also produced in Germany and Austria, as not just the Austrian advertisement from Vienna firm Friedman underlines. Several patent applications in the German Reich exist.
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Pamela and Ivo — Brilliant and fascinating. :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp:
... and apologies for my rather ridiculous suggestion above.
Bernard C. 8)
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this magnificent piece of historical detective work
...is not mine but Mr. Putz' and his collecting friends' merit, whom I thank indeed. For me it was a pleasure to know the right people at the right time :chky:
Ivo and all: still we do not know the maker of the pressed glass container, which interests me, of course... ;D
It's y o u r t u r n to identify the mark ! :24: :24: :24:
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Ah - time to come clean. The mark is not on this item but on the Blauer Heinrich which was purchased along with it... just some pre-delivery confusion.
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Tut, Ivo!
but great to see the conclusion of this tale.
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Wow! Fascinating, educational and riveting!
One has to say that it is no wonder Swan Vestas and Ronson became so successful though.....one of those blue glass thingy's in your pocket would take up a lot of space!
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:24: :24: :24:
:wsh:
:sm: