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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on November 07, 2009, 07:40:09 PM

Title: plinth for what please??
Post by: Paul S. on November 07, 2009, 07:40:09 PM
I'm going to take a gamble that whatever sat originally on this was produced in the U.K.    Goes without saying that it is indeed black glass, as you wud expect  -  about 9.5 cms. high and about 14 cms. wide  -  although I'm not sure which way up it is supposed to sit.   In fact the 'wear ring' is on the topmost rim of the least wide end, which is not the way up that I wud have imagined it to be.   But perhaps this wear was not caused by contact with the surface on which it sat  -  but rather the plinths 'other half'.    No marks unfortunately.      Wud be grateful if someone knows what the other half actually was, and thanks for looking.    Paul S.
Title: Re: plinth for what please??
Post by: David E on November 07, 2009, 08:26:20 PM
Looks like Bagley to me. The smaller diameter is to the top. It is shown in the Bagley book supporting the No. 3186 bowl
Title: Re: plinth for what please??
Post by: Paul S. on November 07, 2009, 09:34:56 PM
thanks David  -  it certainly makes sense that way round  -  bit like the two tier cake stands, with widest at the bottom.   All I need now is the bowl :)  thanks again. Paul S.
Title: Re: plinth for what please??
Post by: Bernard C on November 07, 2009, 10:05:55 PM
Paul — It doesn't look like a Bagley plinth at all.   There is only one style of plinth that "looks" Bagley, and that is their round plinth with the wobbly bottom.   The only reason that other plinths they used "look Bagley" is that we are accustomed to seeing them in Bagley reference books and websites.

You can be reasonably certain that special shapes of plinth made to fit exclusive ranges by a glassworks were made at that glassworks, as also were plinths of which some were made in colour.   Some black circular and even possibly square plinths may have been made elsewhere, and their moulds may have changed ownership from time to time.

Yours is one of these possibilities as it's also Walther plinth No. 3, listed in their 1937 catalogue in three sizes, made to support their Berlin bowl, of which you will find three plinthed examples from Pamela's museum shown on her website.   Possibilities include:
  • The two styles are actually slightly different, but we haven't yet compared two well-provenanced examples side by side to tell, or
  • One glassworks made them and supplied the other, or
  • The mould changed hands at some time from one to the other, or
  • A combination of the last two.

    • I hope that helps.  :angel:

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: Paul S. on November 09, 2009, 07:33:51 PM
    Bernard  -  thanks for the comprehensive reply  -  and I appreciate the points you are making.     Now here comes the ironic part of the story.
    This plinth came from a charity shop in Tunbridge Wells, Kent - and whilst in the same shop I rather hurriedly purchased a pink bowl, which I put to one side when I got home.   You can imagine my embarrassment when, reading your notes about the 'Berlin' bowl, to discover in fact that this is the exact bowl that I had bought in the same shop.    Obviously, as an assembled 'pair' the whole thing becomes a rather large to have on a shelf, and presumably the two parts were separated to avoid any mishaps.    It was a conincidence that I purchased them idividually in the same shop, although now they are re-united.    Sincere thanks for your help, and pics are now attached of the complete 'bowl and plinth'.   Paul S.
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: Bernard C on November 09, 2009, 08:44:44 PM
    Paul — Congratulations.   What an excellent outcome.   Just let me know where to send the invoice!   ;D

    Quote from: Paul S. on November 09, 2009, 07:33:51 PM
    ...   presumably the two parts were separated to avoid any mishaps.   ...

    Not necessarily.   I once purchased a three piece set from a local charity shop in weekly installments.   It turned out that the three parts were in different boxes, all from the same house clearance, which they unpacked one by one as shelf space became available.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: dirk. on November 09, 2009, 08:50:33 PM
    I wonder if this really is a ´Berlin´ bowl? The center is different to my example shown below.
    The pattern of the rim doesn´t match the examples shown on Pamela´s sites - neither in
    the photo section, nor the catalogue print.
    Is this a  Walther bowl or is it another look-alike?
    Pamela, would you mind taking a look at the center of your Berlin bowls, please? Do they
    all look the same?
    http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/00677.html
    http://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Walther-1937.76+B6YmFja1BJRD03NiZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MzIwOCZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD03NiZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: Bernard C on November 09, 2009, 09:23:30 PM
    Paul & Dirk — Many years ago I had both bowls in stock at the same time, and they have identical plinth fittings.   This has been discussed here before.   One was Walther Berlin, the other was by STS Abel, apparently supplied on a bought-in plinth from Walther.   Much of this research was by Angela Bowey, the GMB's revered proprietor, bless her little cotton socks.   ;D

    See:

  • http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/02854.html
  • http://www.glassnewsletter.com/091013news.html
  • http://www.glassencyclopedia.com/STSglass.html

    • Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: Bernard C on November 09, 2009, 09:47:46 PM
    Caution — Please take care not to assume that STS Abel supplied the plinths — they could have left it to their agents / wholesalers to buy in the plinths directly from Walther or from Walther's agents / wholesalers.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: dirk. on November 10, 2009, 05:06:46 AM
    Thanks, Bernhard. I must have missed the STS Abel bowl on Pamela´s site.  :sleep:
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: pamela on November 10, 2009, 10:19:09 PM
    Paul,
    your bowl undoubtedly is STS Abel
    Please have a closer look whether yours is marked also with a 'star/wineglass' like mine:
    http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/02854.html  scroll down for the base pattern and mark

    Angela, thank you for your STS work !  :kissy:

    Dirk,
    yours and my others are Walther BERLIN, different rim and base (ilex? leaves) pattern
    http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/00678.html

    My plinth is exactly the same plinth as Paul's AND similarly slotting into the bowl's base like this facetted one:

    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,29705.0.html (unknown fish handled 'Pseudo-Berlin' III http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/06227.html )

    ALL three plinthes are in resp. came from UK.

     :huh: ::) :ac1:



    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: Bernard C on November 11, 2009, 07:20:51 PM
    Pamela — Ilex = Holly.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: Paul S. on November 11, 2009, 08:16:37 PM
    Pamela  -  thanks for the informative reply, and of course since mine does not have the 'holly' then it is not Walther 'Berlin'.   I have scoured the surface of my bowl, but regret nothing whatsoever in the way of a mark. - however, I appreciate it will be the STS Abel pattern.   The inside of the my bowl is remarkable blemish/scratch free  - might almost have been made yesterday.   Thanks for the references to Angela Bowey's news letter with a short history of the Jugoslavian STS factory etc. - very interesting.  Don't know if you commented on how you describe the STS centre motif (where the 'Berlin' has the Ilex image)  -  but the STS image reminds me of the stylised 'rose' used by the Scottish Arts & Crafts designer Charles Rennie Mackintosh  -  a very geometric outline.  Since this was a common arts movement throughout most of Europe at the turn of the C19, maybe this was a fairy common geometric image.    I like your 'unknown fish handled pseudo Berlin 111' - very detailed.    Presumably like most things, these bowls come in various sizes.......mine for example measures 255mm right across (out lip to outer lip).... or just simply accross the open bowl is 193mm.    I'm intrigued by your comment that 'all three plinths came from the U.K. - why do you think we seem to have a monopoly on plinths?? :)      Paul S. 
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: pamela on November 11, 2009, 10:07:40 PM
    *'all three plinths came from the U.K.*

    Sorry, Paul, this was misunderstood: I did not say the moulds came from U.K., but the one under the green fishy and yours ARE in U.K. and I bought mine FROM an English seller long ago  :)

    BTW, a similar shape was also manufactured by Inwald  :-\
    http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/07032.html (open + scroll down please)

    Regarding measurements, I'll verify tomorrow, however I am still convinced that both bowls' body with handles originate from one and the same mould.

    To avoid future mistakes and misunderstandings: BERLIN III (roman 3) is my given name for the fishies, it is NOT a pattern # 111 - Thank you  :D

    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: pamela on November 12, 2009, 06:51:36 PM
    open diametre of all three bowls is between 192 and 196 mms

    I attach quick shots of bases 

    1. Walther BERLIN holly base
    2. STS
    3. fish handled unknown maker

     8)
    Title: Re: plinth for what please??
    Post by: Paul S. on November 12, 2009, 09:17:07 PM
    sincere thanks Pamela  -  your information is very much appreciated and of course very helpful.   The size matches the figures I had from my own STS bowl.   However, can I be 'Mr. Picky' (troublesome) with a last question.     I quote Bernard earlier in the thread, where he said......."it's also Walther plinth No. 3, listed in their 1937 catalogue in three sizes, made to support their Berlin bowl".........I assume only one size was for the Berlin, the other two plinths, although similar in design were for completely unrelated items.   thanks.  Paul S.