Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: jonchellycain on December 05, 2009, 12:28:36 PM
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Hi all
I was just having a look through suzygpr fantastic photo's when it sparked a memory, so off i went and dragged a long forgotton about box out from its dark corner, nothing fantastic in there but there was this little bear. Now i am a collector of all things Michael Harris and didnt pick up on this little fella, so im not so sure.
The bear is very similar to the Maximal polar bear, but ive never seen or heard of a maximal in this colour.. is it? or is it a just a bear from another factory
here is the link to suzygpr's one http://picasaweb.google.com/guinearescue/SuzySGlass#5312300323462095026 he looks a little more chunky than mine. But the one in Mark Hill's book looks alot more like mine (except its green ;0) same measurements almost and shape
It measures just over 3 inches about 7.5-8cms tall, with a smooth and very well polished base. he is black (think it may be a very very dark blue) with white going from the neck to the base down his back, with patches of pale blue (think the blue is from the core colour of very dark blue?) then cased in clear glass
what does everybody think??
many thanks
michelle
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He could be Wedgwood. The Maximal polar bear was loosely based on the Wedgwood bear
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Ive never actually had a maximal/minimal so im not sure how they feel, the base does look very much like a Wedgewood but they are generally a bit bigger arnt they??
thanks michelle
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Hi ,
This one is very similar in shape and looks like IOW Azurene ? 7cm tall (smaller) , what do you think ?
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Both IOW.....I had one just like yours Michelle....I'll try to find a picture tomorrow.....and yours is as well BB....or it might be a St John's Crystal. Isle of Man one. I had an IOW one like that BB and also a lovely red azurene one as well. Wedgwood are definately bigger Christine.....and have a longer nose.
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Thanks very much Rosie,
They are mini sculptural beauties....so well made. I hope you can find that photo :hi:
Cheers Mike.
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I reckon it's a St John's one - as is the green one in the book.
Well made, but not as well made as IoWSG.
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Good Afternoon all...
The Good News:These are the pictures of the IOW Minimals and Maximals I have sold, before I decided to start collecting them. :cry: (seller's remorse!!)
The Bad News: Michelle, I can't find the proper pictures of the one like yours....I sold it in Feb last year. I have written to the buyer to see if she will send me a picture of it, if she still has it....so, :X:
Mike you are so right, they are beautiful and I now collect them with a passion....I have lots of them, ellies, squirrels, birds, ducks (Oh why did I ever sell any of them!!)???
I have just bought my 4th ellie fron a seller inOz at great expense!! It was worth it though.
Sue, I can't agree that IOM are not so well made....I have some of those as well, and I defy anyone to tell the difference without turning them over to see the labels....I have some by IOW that are not as well finished as the IOM ones.
Each piece is totally individual and although they are all beautiful, some are more so than others.....regardless of them being IOW or IOM....IMHO.
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Just found these pictures of a red one I sold as well.....
Where we do need to be careful is in being led to believe that these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STUDIO-GLASS-PAPERWEIGHT-HANDMADE-POLAR-BEAR-GREEN-WHIT-/330505679721
are IOW glass minimals and maximals.
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Your St John's bear is lovely- and it looks like it was made under the official ageis of MH - however, St. John's went on to do a load of stuff not under the official ageis that are decidedly poorer quality - compare the modelling of your bear with the (distemper :-X ) green one in the book.
I've got one which matches the one in the book exactly. It's not well modelled at all.
I also have a couple of largish St. John's Fishy things - very badly finished, I can assure you.
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Sue, can you be certain that Michelle's bear is IOM......mine was so similar, and had an IOW label.
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My original black polar bear like yours Michele, was sold as a badger, and as I was collecting Badgers at the time, I was disappointed with it. The smaller azurene bear was also sold as a badger, and I thought " Huh! That isn't a badger!" when they arrived and put them back up for sale!!
Little did I know then, that I would one day be an avid IOW and IOM glass collector!!
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I didn't think IoWSG made them in anything but the Azurene finish, Rosie, although checking the book - I see that in 1983 only, a few coloured ones were tried - but I don't know in what, if any, patterns or colour mixes.
Your IoWSG ones have that little turn to the head, which gives them character - the St. John's one's don't have that - they're more just lumps of glass in a set shape.
However, never say never!
As you know, there's a new range of maximals/minimals out - officially all azurene - but I have a little penguin, in just surface decorated in plain blue. (Labelled - it was my free gift for renewing my subscription)
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Hi again Sue.... I had a long chat to Ron and Ann about these little fellows whilst I was at the Cambridge Glass Fair, and there were some coloured ones produced by IOW and I know that the one I had was an IOW one, and was just like Michelle's....with a whitish streak through the head and back....I think that's why the seller thought it was a badger.
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I bow to your superior knowledge of these, Rosie. :kissy:
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Well Ron and Ann's knowledge really, they told me so much about them.....not that I can remember everything they said....but we did chat about the Giftmart stuff at length.....I think we discussed it as well, didn't we Sue?
Here is another picture of the minimal azurene one sold as a badger....I ask myself now....how could I have possibly considered selling it on!!! :cry: :cry:
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I'm personally positive the giftmart ones are leftover St John's stock, possibly from after the court case following their decision to act outwith the terms of their license.
(but, as you know, I'm not an afficionado of pwts and animally things. much.)
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Thanks Rosie for all the fab. photos :chky: . I had no idea that azurene came in all types of different colours . I thought it was just gold and silver !
It's superb you still have the photos and can share them here and pass on your knowledge !
These bears are wonderful and really something to look out for.
Ta very much , Mike.
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Here's a small group.....hope you like them Mike....
The pink at the back are Caithness and Tweedsmuir, not IOW!!
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WoW !
How cute are those baby elephants ! And the ducks !
I didn't know IOWSG produced such a diverse range and I havn't seen any on my glass hunting expeditions. :hi:
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Baked beans - all Azurene is gold and/or silver foil over a colour of some sort.
I've decided I'm personally completely clueless about these! I've just noticed that the non Azurene ones attributed to St. John's do have that neat little turn to the head.
But the non Azurene ones made at IoWSG should be fairly scarce - given they were only made in '83, so I don't quite get how a load of them could have turned up with the same consignment of Azurene finished, probably St John's, beasties.
My bear is exactly the same as the one in the book - that distemper green (which was never used at IoWSG) and it's not very nicely modelled at all - at first I thought it was just a big mouse.
I shall stick to what I know. :thup:
Distemper green = St John's.
Label reading "St. John's" = St. John's.
and
massive Azurene fish-thing, (shape same as Wedgwood fish) crudely finished, matching even more massive, crudely-finished, Azurene-Wedgwood-fish-shape-thing-with-label = very probably + St John's.)
:ooh:
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Sue, you most certainly are not 'clueless about these little beasties!!'
When speaking to Ron about these, it would seem that originally the animals were made on the Isle of Wight and sent over to the Isle of Man to have the gold finish put on them as it was more economical to do that....hence the quality of the animals was consistant.
I have lots of IOM glass animals that are like Christines speckled ellie. These are not azurene, and the quality is superb
I also had many and still have several IOW azurene animals that are different colours....blue, green, and a lovely creamy white. I think I showed the hedgehog collection on here a while ago.....including a black one and a tiny minimal one.
So, I think that it is possible that IOM did carry on production of these animals after the agreement with IOW ran out, and that may be when they changed the shape of their label from round (I have some of those) to Triangular like IOW labels.
I really don't know for certain.
All I do know, is that I had some and sold them and I regret that, because they were lovely, and all the people who bought them were delighted with them, and now I know why!!
Buyers remorse hurts so much!! :cry:
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No ellies here :huh:
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No ellies here :huh:
You are so right Christine....sorry, I meant Anne EB!! :pb:
I need some supper!! :usd:
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it would seem that originally the animals were made on the Isle of Wight and sent over to the Isle of Man to have the gold finish put on them
That does not sound right Rosie, the gold leaf is applied while the glass is hot so it fuses. It would hardly make sense to make something, cool it, send it elsewhere and then heat it up again (with the risk for each item that that would entail). Then apply the gold leaf and work it in before another stay in the lehr to cool.
John
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You are quite right John, that occurred to me as well as I was eating supper!!
I did say that Ron had given me information overload......he, (quite rightly) has so much knowledge about these lovely pieces of art glass......I might well have misunderstood all that he told me, so, I have been looking through some previous threads about this topic and see that actually the whole process was outsourced to IOM as a cost saving measure........it would seem that ex Wedgwood employers were used to make them.
So thank you John for making me check up on that.....I'm learning more and more about them......still got a long way to go though.
Michelle, good news!! I have had a reply from the buyer of the one I sold, and she has said she will take some pictures for me....hope we don't have to wait too long.......I'll post them as soon as they arrive.....OK?
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That is a relief Rosie, I was beginning to doubt myself and was wondering if they really had been sent backwards and forwards.
John
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No need to doubt yourself John, you know more about glass in your little finger than I will ever know.....I really value all the help and information given on this message board.....it has helped me immensely and that is one of the reasons I try to help identify glass for others.
Most often I don't have a clue, but the search for info makes me learn, and at my age that is no bad thing. So once again, thanks for making me look and check.
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So, is it true to say then , that the majority , if not all, of these Polar Bears and other IOW Azurene animals etc., were made on the IOM by ex-Wedgwood glassblowers and using St Johns glass even though they may have IOW labels ? :ho: I think this is how I have read it so far :usd: ....but I may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick here !!
Ta Mike :ho: :ho:
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Isle of Wight Studio Glass ones with IoWSG labels would have been made at Isle of Wight Studio Glass.
Azurene is the description of the effect of using gold and silver foil - no matter what colour of glass it is on. If there is no foil, it isn't Azurene.
At St John's, they (including workers from Wedgwood) used Michael Harris' designs and tecniques under license to make maximals and minimals, until they reneged on the license agreement.
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Thanks Sue,
I definately got hold of the wrong end !
So , without a label it would be very difficult to know if it was IOM or IOW !
The plot thickens !
:cheers: Mike
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:24:
Unless it's that ghastly distemper green!
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Gosh, it seems to be a right old minefield ! Two companies producing very similar artwork ....nightmare ! I really had no idea 'till now !
My example,sadly ,has a chip to the base and a nibbled ear , but I bought it because I wanted to find out more as it was so nice to behold.
Then I found Michelle's example, posted here almost two years ago ! So it was a good excuse to try to find out more about it !
Little did I know it wasn't a simple answer !
Rosie, have you managed to get hold of some photos of the one you sold ? It would be so good to see it !! :rah:
Ta Mike.
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Hi Mike, out of courtesy, I am just waiting for Michelle to 'dip back' into this thread.
In the meantime, it might be worth reiterating that IOW asked IOM to make the little animals....IOM didn't steal the idea from them.
Look at my group again, and see if you can tell me which of them has an IOM sticker on the base instead of IOW......bet you can't!!
I truly think it matters not....and where a label is missing, you would have a lot of trouble guessing correctly which was made where.
What I do object to are the ones being sold now on eBay by Studio Glass....there is no attempt to deceive by the seller, but where the colours are the same as IOW or IOM, ( and some are!), it is possible for the buyer to remove any labels and add a few scratches to the base to 'age' them and sell them on as IOW or IOM pieces......do you see what I mean?
We have yet to find out where these either were, or are, being made, if they were over-stock left after the sale of IOM, or if they ar being made in China.....but I believe Ron Wheeler is looking into it.
In this context, that is all academic.
Looking again at yours, Mike, I would have said it was IOW and a very nice piece at that.....but would it really matter to you if it turned out to be proven IOM?
I would still buy it if it came up for sale!
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Meanwhile....here is a nice GREEN one for you to look at, by our friend Gift Mart!!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STUDIO-GLASS-PAPERWEIGHT-HANDMADE-POLAR-BEAR-ANIMAL-GRE-/260704696219
:mrgreen:
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:-X That's the same as my one. It's packed away. Where it can't get at my IOW baby penguin. ;)
:spls: :spls: :spls:
Rosie - are you aware of any evidence to a rumor that if an Azurene beast is only foiled from the base to it's middle, then it's IOM, while IOW beasts should be foiled all over.... ????
(unless it's the cutest of cute new little penguins, who have foiled shirt-fronts :) )
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No, not aware of that roumour Sue....the foil is randomely placed, regardless of the island on which it was produced....it was all in the lap of the artist!!
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Thanks!
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Thanks Rosie,
Sorry , you are right , it was me being impatient....perhaps Michelle is on her Summer hols. :sun:
It doesn't matter to me , IOM or IOW as long as the quality is the same which it is (as you say).
To a purist IOWSG collector it might be a problem. Also, if IOWSG fetches a premium price in the market (which I would imagine it does over IOM ) then a buyer would need to be aware of the possibility that an item described as IOWSG (without a label) could well be from the IOM. But then there is the point you make that IOW asked IOM to make the small animals , so I'm thinking that these would have been sold on the IOW & by IOWSG to retailers with IOWSG labels. If this is the case then they are all one of the same thing. So even a purist collector of IOWSG shouldn't mind either which way.
So it's really good that the subject can be discussed here in so much detail to get to the bottom of it all and for me (who knows so little) it is a real eye opener. :or: Mike
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:thup:
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:thud:
No, no, no, Mike!
There is no way that bits made by IOM would end up being sold in the IOW shop with IOW labels.
This just wasn't MH's way. When the Boffos made jugs and animal things at Mdina in their own time, to sell for themsleves, they were not sold in the Mdina shop, but at the outlet in Valetta.
St. John's crystal was on it's last legs, going under, when Michael Harris stepped in with his help and expertise and basically saved the company, who made and sold his designs under license.
It wasn't a matter of contracting work out to them!
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I understood it that IOW 'outsourced' * the Minimals / Maximals work to IOW, according to Franks input in this previous link:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16131.0.html
Quote from Frank:
"It turns out that the Minimal and Maximal range were designed by IOW but outsourced to Isle of Man glass. IOM glass was staffed by ex Wedgwood glassmakers."
*Definition of outsourced:
To send out (work, for example) to an outside provider or manufacturer in order to cut costs.
This tallies well with the conversation I had with Ron in Cambridge.
St. John's Crystal Isle of Man made and sold these little pieces from their own shop, not on the Isle of Wight, Mike.
They were made under license, but the initial agreement was, as far as I understood, symbiotic, benefitting both parties. Only when St John's Crystal renegued on the agreement did things go sour.
Up until then all was well, and the little animals produced were of a high quality, regardless of the colour of the glass.
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I have a clear Wedgwood elephant, with a label on the base - which no doubt is a beast that you are all familiar with anyway, but is it of any interest, in your deliberations to see my animal. Mind you, it might take me a week to locate which box it resides in - and in which shed I need to visit to find the correct box. ;D - so perhaps not a good idea after all. Is the clear Wedgwood elephant a common item with you animal collectors??
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Hello Paul.....thanks for popping by here.....clear glass ellies by Wedgwood in the larger size, (4"+ high) do seem to be few and far between. The Wedgwood 'Lilliput' Series were mostly made in clear glass....including the squirrels and ducks.
If it is a large one, and you are able to locate it easily, then a picture would be nice, however, I do have several of the 'Lilliput' ellies and squirrels easily to hand.
I also have a whole herd of the larger ellies in many different colours.....and some smaller ones as well.
Strangely enough, although we have mentioned that Wedgwood workers came to the IOM to make the Minimal and Maximal animals, I, for the life of me cannot see that they were made in the same style, and this is most probably because the designs were not Wedgwood, but were Michael Harris's.
However, some of the other larger animals have a similarity to the Wedgwood designs....I have a lovely squirrel that has all the hallmarks of a Wedgwood piece but was made by St Johns Crystal Isle of Man......in fact, I have two....did have three, but gave one away as a pressy!
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Hi All ,
There is a strong suggestion from both Frank and Mark that these were made for IOW by IOM , having read the above link.
I've added some further close shots of mine just to illustrate the decoration.
The base is a speckled purple colour with black flecks cased in clear glass.
Then, on top of this, the surface decoration is gold/silver leaf with other surface colours such as a copper/brown , blue , and white.
I just thought it might give some colour clues to its origin , if not, then at least it can provide a reference to other examples which may come along in the future. Ta, Mike.
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Suggestion is not confirmation - and we would do well to heed what both Mark and Frank say exactly.
If they knew, they would say so.
If they "suggest", it is an educated guess, no more.
No confirmation has been made.
too many folk run away with rumours like this, then they become transformed into "percieved wisdom" by folk who omit the doubt when passing it on.... then folk have to spend years trying to undo the damage.
:nogos: :bsh:
Some images of St. John's fish - shape decidedly Wedgwood, quality decidedly dodgy.
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Sue, I would agree with two things you have just written:
1. They are GHASTLY!!!
2. They are just like Wedgwood fish.
I will now add my own bit to your fish comments....I think Wedgwood fish are ghastly as well as the ones you have illustrated.
Your fish are hardly representative of some of the beautifully intricate animal pieces made at St John's Crystal.....you only have to look at the examples of some that I showed in the 'Show me yours and I'll show you mine' thread to see that! Amongst those squirrels and ellies are a couple of St John's Crystal pieces.....I defy you to say which they are. Your own comments following my showing them, says it all.
This thread is not a platform to slag off St John's Crystal, it is to ascertain if we can find out if the two polar bears (Michelle's and Mike's) are made by the IOW studio or the IOM studio.
Neither of them have labels, so an 'educated guess' may be needed.
We can only use information given by those who offer it, and both Ron and Frank seem in agreement as to the relationship between IOM and IOW glass.
The fact that the two companies 'fell out' does not make one studio's glass good and the other's bad.
There is good and bad glass in all studios.
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Two more pictures just for interest
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Lovely collection Rosie,
I'll have a stab at a guess for spotting the IOM :ooh:
I think the IOM squirrel is the second from the left in the photo and the IOM ellie is the middle one. Only on style reather than quality ...but then style says a lot.......having said that, I could be totally wrong ! :wsh:
Sue , how do you know for sure that the IOM animals were made under license only and that there wasn't any form of 'contracting out ' of the work to the IOM from IOWSG? Not that I doubt your statements, it would be good to know how you came to know for sure ! Ta, Mike.
P.S. Don't like the fish either :po:
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Interesting guess Mike.......but wrong! Sorry.
I got another ellie the other day....IOW, not in this picture....Just the same 'style' as the one you thought was the IOM one.
Fascinating, isn't it?
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All I know is what's in the book.
The book says these were made under license. It says nothing at all about contracting out. It doesn't say if IOM bits were sold at IOW or not, with or without labels of either sort.
And all I knew, (until seeing Rosie's pics) of St John's was these awful fish and a horrid bear/mouse thing in distemper green. Added to that, comments from Ron about IOW being of vastly superior quality to IOM, I simply ran with what Ron said and the 3 ghastly bits of evidence I have which supported it.
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Oh Blast Rosie ! :thud:
It really does illustrate why glass collecting has limitless depths ! There's a whole books' worth here ! :hi:
Thanks Sue , well that's fair enough , golly what a journey !! As for those 'distemper green ' examples :grrr: !!
Ta, Mike
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Hi Mike, :hi:
Michelle is back from hols now, and is happy for me to show the picture of my polar bear like hers.....I think I mentioned earlier, that the person that bought it from me still had it, and was kind enough to send me photos, so here they are........ :X: they will upload.
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Thanks for posting the photos Rosie....I too have just got back from hols ....looks the same as Michelle's !...so if this one has an IOW label then it proves Michelle's is IOW :rah:
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Hi Mike, one word of caution.....a label NEVER PROVES the authenticity of an item.
They can be removed and stuck on anything.
Unless there is an irrefutable signature, then a label only serves the purpose of confirming an attribution.
So, Look at the item.....does it look right?
Look at the signature.....does it look authentic?
Look at the label.....does it support either one or both of the above.
I bought a lovely Wedgwood Lilliput Squirrel, sold as a Langham one......I bought it because I knew from the shape that it was Wedgwood. When it arrived, it had a Langham Glass House sticker on the base.....covering an acid etched Wedgwood England mark!!!!
The Wedgwood squirrel has a fatter tail than the Langham ones, and this is where looking at hundreds of pieces helps you to 'know' when something doesn't look 'right'.
It is even worth buying a piece, even if you don't collect that type, so you can learn more about it....after documenting and photographing it, you can always sell it on.
I even buy chipped pieces so I can use them to learn from.....pennies spent here, can save pounds later on.
:sun:
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Hi Rosie ,
Love the squirrel story ! LoL ! ...but very wise words.
I agree with the idea of buying chipped examples to discover more which is what I did with my bear example here....sure did discover more !!!! THANKS ALL !!
I now have two glass penguin chicks (not IOW) the same height as this polar bear ! Makes an odd display but who cares .... ! :usd:
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Show us your penguins Mike....and I'll show you my otter when it arrives....OK?
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Hi Rosie,
My penguins (of dubious pedigree ! ) are shown in this link about penguin chicks etc. .......but just have a look at
Patrick's Boffo elle at the end !!! :chky:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40609.15.html
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I like your penguins Mike, thanks for linking to them, and the Boffo Ellie is to die for.....I have dozens of ellies (literally!!) but none from Whitefriars.......yet!!
I have just got the otter, so will show it very soon, give me a nudge if I appear to forget!!
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Thanks Rosie
Looking forward to photos of your otter !
Photos are so important ....can't get enough of them !!!
This following link is to one of the best Virtual Museums on the www (IMHO)....pottery ....but just have a look at these 'oh so fab.' 1960's studio examples from Guy Sydenham and Tony Morris of Poole Pottery !
http://pooleimages.co.uk/guy.aspx
I know this is going off the beaten track here but it just shows the power of photos on the web .
Cheers Mike.
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OMG Mike, they are stunning!! :o
Please don't show me anything else, I am a collectaholic, and for two pence would start collecting that wonderful pottery!
Do you collect it?
Perhaps you could use this Pool Pottery link to start a new thread here.....ie:
'What else do you collect besides glass?'
How about it? :)
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Hi Rosie ,
Well I would like to collect it but sadly I don't have the funds ! It's really worth studying though .... the 1960's studio range is a totally enthralling era of Poole Pottery ! Pure genius ! Poole is only a short boat ride from the IOW so it is relevant ..just...to this thread !! :ooh:
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Pottery topic would be OT for a Glass board! :) See http://pottery.yobunny.com/ and search for Poole. ;)