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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on May 05, 2010, 05:58:54 PM

Title: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Paul S. on May 05, 2010, 05:58:54 PM
feel best to start a new post -although this has, I think, strong connections with the immediately previous thread started by Paul Bowen.
My knowedge of these prewar/1950's is poor at best, and initially I thought this was Nazeing, until I picked it up, then confusion reigned.  The colourway is what appears to be a very pale amethyst  -  it has all of the requisite elongated bubbles, but has as you can see a snapped pontil scar, and the base of the inside is 'domed' a little.    There is a folded rim (did Nazeing go in for folded rims?)  -  but what is possibly most confusing is the surface of the outside, which is rough and actually quite pitted, more so towards the base.     It doesn't have that surface smoothness (and the ground concave pontil mark) that my one and only piece of Nazeing possess.     I thought of Walsh Pompeian, which was produced in amethyst, and which might have that rough outter surface.   It does ring like some of the best wfrs. :), and as you can see quita bit of age judging by the matt wear ring under the foot.   Anyway, all at sea, so more than greatful for any help please, and thanks for looking.
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Paul S. on May 05, 2010, 06:01:03 PM
apologies, please ignore the title for the pics.   bit of a cods on the archivists part there :-[
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: flying free on May 06, 2010, 09:35:51 PM
that's very beautiful  :) and I have absolutely no experience of handling any of this glass so my observations are quite possibly useless  ;D, but the closeup of the base showing the texture reminded me of the Arculus glass in Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British glass page 100 (but the shape and the colour are not shown).  However, not ever having seen any I have no idea if it really is similar.  Then I looked at Nazeing pictures and there is a picture of a similar shape bowl shown on page 107 bottom plate.
And then, the pontil looks vaguely similar to the pontil on my piece of Gray Stan - but I don't recall seeing Gray Stan in this type of decor in any of the few scarce pics I have seen.

So, really not helpful at all but I like it :hiclp:

m
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: nigel benson on May 06, 2010, 10:39:52 PM
Hello,

I saw this yesterday and felt lazy, so thought I'd wait and see what others think, but I will say, neither Nazeing, nor Gray-Stan. Why Walsh?

Nigel
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Paul S. on May 07, 2010, 08:31:45 AM
thanks to both of you.      As I have lamented elsewhere, these pre-second war colourways seem to be a nightmare to attribute correctly - especially if, like me, you possess very few other pieces with which to make comparisons.  Why Walsh, Nigel  - no particular academic reason, other than that they did produce an amethyst colour (which don't believe Nazeing did), and as mentioned, the outer suface of the piece is very rough and pitted (unlike my one and only piece of Nazeing).    This suggested to me possibly Pompeian.    These are only my inexperienced thoughts  -  and may well not really lead to the actual answer.    What do people think of the folded rim?

Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: nigel benson on May 07, 2010, 10:10:50 AM
Hi Paul,

Nazeing's amethyst is known as 'Mulberry', and, as you rightly note, does not have a pitted/rough surface.

Walsh Pompeian has bubble inclusions throughout a self-coloured metal (transparent colour), this footed bowl has flecks of colour within clear metal.

Nigel

Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Mosquito on May 07, 2010, 10:42:37 AM
I don't really see why you're only thinking pre-war/ 50s for this - it looks like it could be modern studio production, the rough pontil & folded rim would certainly be consistent with this.
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Paul S. on May 07, 2010, 10:50:28 AM
Steven  -  have to admit that it was the shape plus the fact that there is quite a noticeable matt wear ring on the underside of the foot that lead me to attribute some age.    I have also looked at the inside surface - catching the light - and there are definitely small scratches and marks which seem to indicate use over a period of time.    However, I appreciate it is possible to fake these.
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Lustrousstone on May 07, 2010, 11:49:10 AM
Sometimes they just happen when something is used or moved and dusted a lot. It doesn't take long...
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: paulbowen on May 07, 2010, 05:09:47 PM
Thank you for thinking of me.  Although I cannot comment on this piece, I must say that I've really gained a healthy appreciation for British glass through this site in general, and the recent couple of threads that I was part of in particular.  This is a really nice bowl.  British glass is much more diverse, and high quality, than I ever realized before.  Keep up the good work, everyone!
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Paul S. on May 07, 2010, 07:28:19 PM
Supposing Steven that it is a modern studio piece  -  might you have any suggestions from whence, or whose production possibly.    Or is the potential field of possibilities too wide.    I have also wondered if it might have been continental.
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: nigel benson on May 07, 2010, 09:54:44 PM
Hello,

I imagine we're thinking of it being British and from between the wars because that is the most likely answer :o  Maybe, with the possibility of it still being made to designs from that time, but after the Second World War. Perhaps folks hadn't already read that into my earlier postings?

Over recent months I have noticed that folks visiting here seem to rely on one characteristic to a piece of glass in order to get a line of enquiry, when in fact they should be looking at the item in the round and taking into account all their characteristics in order to make a diagnosis.

OK, so you're using two charcteristics Steve, but both are consistant with production of items from throughout the whole of the 20th century in Britain (and probably elsewhere).

Why not look at this, for instance? http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?album=527&pos=37&PHPSESSID=6663181ff5bf613098b125e7d43d85a6 (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?album=527&pos=37&PHPSESSID=6663181ff5bf613098b125e7d43d85a6)

That is only one of a number of possible attributions that come to mind - all British and from between the wars.

Nigel

PS. Thanks to Bernard for posting that reference for us all to use.
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Anne on May 07, 2010, 11:47:40 PM
Nigel, when you link to an image in GlassGallery you need to use the URL link below the picture - the one in the File Info section - not the one in the address bar. GG uses a series of dynamic URLs which change the image depending on how the viewer is sorting the pictures in any album... so what you're thinking we're seeing could be entirely different to what we are seeing.  The URL to use will always end in a - dash followed by a number, like this: http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-11442 (this is the image I'm seeing from your dynamic one above - is that what it should be?)
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: flying free on May 08, 2010, 08:00:18 AM
Anne I'm not seeing that at all.  I see a Haden and Haden picture from a catalogue?

m
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Mosquito on May 08, 2010, 08:41:11 AM
Quote from: nigel benson on May 07, 2010, 09:54:44 PM
OK, so you're using two charcteristics Steve, but both are consistant with production of items from throughout the whole of the 20th century in Britain (and probably elsewhere).

That was exactly my point; hence why I believe it is necessary to consider alternatives. To begin with the assumption that it is British inter-war production is fine, I was simply suggesting that other possibilities shouldn't be excluded entirely. To do so would be myopic.
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: nigel benson on May 08, 2010, 03:27:33 PM
Steve

Quote
To do so would be myopic.

Not if you know what it is and you're trying to make folks work to get their reward. In the long run it will do far more good.

Nigel
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Mosquito on May 08, 2010, 06:59:47 PM
OK Nigel, obviously I misunderstood your original post, I simply thought that no conclusion had been reached so was trying to cast the net a little wider.....
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Paul S. on May 08, 2010, 09:29:52 PM
Well, guess I should contribute a little more to show that whilst I am aware that I can't hold a candle to most of you, I do appreciate the effort and time that the experts give to help us beginners.   Must admit to have been drinking this evening, plus the fact that as I'm not really computer literate I am unable to follow too much of what 'da technical wizard's' linguistics mean- but I know she is one hell of a clever woman ;).   Thus I apologise for the rambling.
Looking at the images that Nigel has added (sincere thanks to Bernard) I can say that my bowl looks very similar, even though the pictures are in b. & w.    Like my bowl, these images show a glass that is much more transparent (less densly coloured) than other makers such as Wfrs. and Nazeing (of which I have one piece of each)    I may be wrong, but I detect from the b. & w. pictures (Haden & Haden) that the bowl illustrated has an eliptical shaped raised bump in the bottom, rather than a truly circular shape.   Mine also has a similar shaped raised lump.    Think I am also right in saying that the outside surface of the pieces shown in Bernard's contibution appear to have a matt (non shiny surface) - pitted even perhaps - thus giving rise to my thoughts of 'Pompeian'.   I see also that the colour mentioned is Amethyst.
On a more subjective note, yes, it is true that we jump to a conclusion more so if it leads to what we want to believe  -  and despite the experience and expertise of Lustrousstone, for whom I have great respect, I remain convinced that the base wear and internal marks of my bowl indicate that it is not a recent studio piece.  Of course, pieces of this shape and design were/are iconic of 1920 - 1940 shapes, and whilst the design may well have been continued into the 1950's, I admit to having fallen into the trap of assuming my piece was automatically pre 1940 because of the shape.     The folded rim on my bowl remains a slight source of mystery, however.
If it is of any use I can, of course, add more pictures, and am more than happy to bring along with me to the next Cambridge Fair, if anyone is interested.
My thanks to all of you for your interest, and I am now going to bed because I need to be up at 5 for the b.s.     Paul S.
Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
Post by: Bernard C on May 09, 2010, 12:26:09 AM
Quote from: nigel benson on May 07, 2010, 09:54:44 PM
...   PS. Thanks to Bernard for posting that reference for us all to use.

Nigel's dynamic URL gives me the metal part of a Dunhill / WF Prong ashtray / menu holder, so here are the correct absolute links — both are clickable to enlarge:
  • http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-8615
  • http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-8614

    • Note that they are only available to GMB members for linking in to appropriate GMB topics, as with all GlassGallery images.   Anyone wishing to utilise them elsewhere should contact me first.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
    Post by: Anne on May 09, 2010, 07:04:53 PM
    Quote from: flying free on May 08, 2010, 08:00:18 AM
    Anne I'm not seeing that at all.  I see a Haden and Haden picture from a catalogue?

    m

    M that was my point... the use of the dynamic URL gives a different image depending on how you are sorting the images (there's a sort by menu at the top right of each album - so you can sort them by name, by date, or reverse, etc... ) by using the absolute link below an image you will always get the same result as it's the actual fixed-point reference for the image. :thup:
    Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
    Post by: flying free on May 09, 2010, 08:01:39 PM
    aha - thanks for explaining  :)
    m
    Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
    Post by: nigel benson on May 13, 2010, 12:30:25 PM
    Hi,

    Firstly, thanks to Anne and Bernard for pointing out (and correcting) my link  :) Something new to learn, for a thing that I can't remember trying to do before :o

    Now for Paul's thoughts, which, if this was done after a few glasses of wine, then either that works well, or you're hidding you're light under the proverbial bushel  ;) :)

    The only thing I'd draw attention to in your analysis is that the elipse you refer to is probably as a result of the angle the piece is in the photo and is more likely going to reflect the shape of the bowl (round) - although I'm not sure I see the bump thatyou're refering to. Apart from that I wouldn't disagree with the points you have discussed, which nicely analyse the situation thus far.......

    Nigel
    Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
    Post by: Pinkspoons on May 14, 2010, 03:27:51 PM
    The production technique (bubbled clear glass marvered in coloured chips) seems to be the same as my bowl here:

    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,30117.0.html
    Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
    Post by: Paul S. on May 14, 2010, 07:45:00 PM
    thanks for your futher thoughts.    Not always easy to see, but am I correct in thinking that the outer surface of the green bowl appears to be as shiny and smooth as the inside??   As mentioned mine is not.   On mine the outer surface is something akin to smooth orange peel - matt in texture, and quite rough towards the base - with an almost 'dried burst bubbles' effect.    Looks as though the green bowl - after marvering - retained a good thickness of clear glass on the inside (like mine) so that - after grinding out the pontil - you are left with a clear area, which can be seen from the outside.    In other words if you take away about a millimetre or tad more from the outside surface, you take away virtually all of the colour  -  and looks as though the pontil dish is also shiny on your bowl.   Other differences when compared to the amethyst piece, such as the folded rim, ground pontil as opposed to snapped and actual colour may or may not be significant.    Did you eventually get a definite attribution for the green bowl?    The stepped upper section is  - apparently - somewhat like the shape of some Nazeing designs.           cheers       Paul S.
    Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
    Post by: Pinkspoons on May 14, 2010, 09:03:32 PM
    It's a trick of the lighting, but the outside is lightly pitted and quite matt like yours, most obviously on the base and on the lower part of the body where the glass is least expanded during blowing.

    Yup, on my piece the colour is entirely on the surface, completely removed by the ground/polished pontil.

    Unfortunately, I'm still awaiting a clear attribution. Nigel lists a few possible contenders in a thread for an identical bowl in pink (linked to in my initial post for the green bowl), but I've not been able to confirm either way on any of them.
    Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
    Post by: nigel benson on May 15, 2010, 11:17:38 AM
    6 May 2010:

    Quote
    but I will say, neither Nazeing, nor Gray-Stan.


    Nigel
    Title: Re: id request please for possible Nazeing or Walsh.
    Post by: Pinkspoons on May 15, 2010, 11:43:55 AM
    I meant this list, with regards a different bowl that uses an identical technique of clear bubbled glass + marvered colour (although Walsh has since been discounted):

    Quote from: nigel benson on November 11, 2009, 12:58:50 AM
    Monart - No
    Vasart - No
    Nazeing - No
    Keith Murray - No
    S&W - Possible
    Walsh - Possible
    Haden, Mullett & Haden - Possible

    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,30007.msg163075.html#msg163075