Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: jonchellycain on May 12, 2010, 05:45:53 PM
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Hi all
Im hoping my paperweight skills are getting a little better. I spotted this weight in an antiques centre today for £8, and although its a little scuffed and scratched with a couple of bullseyes, i thought i would have it.
At the time i thought it was French and early around 1880 ish ?
Ive had a look through my books and ive found 2 which have similar qualities
Millers Paperweights of the 19th & 20th centuries a collectors guide Anne Metcalfe page 16 bottom left is a clichy weight
And in Glass Paperweights by James Mackay on page 57 is another weight by clichy which has the same coloured ground and the colours of the canes are the same.
Am i right ??
my weight does appear to have both the "pasty mould" and six point star canes.
The base has a slight concave with a a flat rim which it sits on with a fair bit of wear.
Its a flat (ish) topped wide dome shape (has it been cut down at some point?)
It is 6.5cms in diameter 4.25cms tall and weighs 375g
Please tell me im right ;D if so any idea on age if not :cry:
The last picture is a close up of the central canes and has been inhanced so the colours look a little different, but it was to show the canes a little clearer
many thanks
michelle
http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/14/37/17/66/100_5218.jpg
http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/14/37/17/66/100_5219.jpg
http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/14/37/17/66/100_5220.jpg
http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/14/37/17/66/100_5221.jpg
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Congratulations, Michelle, on your beautiful find! :clap: :clap: I think you are right on with your id but you will have to wait for others to confirm your treasure.
Gotta run ..... Lily 8)
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I think you're right, too. Wow, lucky you! :hiclp:
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Yep - a beautiful Clichy, congrats!
The canes and base match known examples and is a well known Clichy design.
From around 1845-60'ish
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Oh fantastic I'm really pleased, plus it means my instincts for paperweights are getting better. Do you think it has been polished at any stage or is the shape size right?
Many thanks to all
michelle
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My goodness me !
I've been trying to find a bargain Clichy for many years and I have always thought it an impossible task . I would have thought an Antiques Centre would be the last place to find one as dealers check each others cabinets !!
Superb !!
Cheers Mike.
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:hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp: Can you lend me your Eye?
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To be honest Mike, ive had a few bargains out of antique centres, i still think in those places glass is rather snubbed and people are not that interested in it.
The place i got it from was a massive barn type of building, which was like a maze inside with lots of stairs and tiny rooms, had about 40/50 dealers. I also managed to pick up a lobed ruby whitefriars bowl for £5 and another bowl which im yet to ID for £7.
Definatly no glass dealers in there i would say.
The £4 Bacarat mini weight i had a few months back was from an antiques fair.
I think the best bit for me was that i recognised it, so im definatly learning
:24: at antiquerose123
cheers
Michelle
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Barn, where? Close to Norfolk or Bourne?
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Norfolk, i only found it yesterday by chance.
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Oh do tell please, on FB if you like. Mum lives in Norfolk (sister nr Bourne)
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cor blow me i cant give away all me secrets, you'll all be down there on mass clear the place out :24:. Ive emailed you the details. ;D Its Huntingdonshire
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:kissy: We don't go often enough for you to worry, but we do like new places to go.
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Hi Michelle,
It gives me hope to carry on looking :pb:. <------ me looking for another in another antique centre !
I wonder if France would be a better place to look for an old French paperweight ! (But you've just proved that the chances of finding a bargain unknown/unrecorded weight on these shores has just gone up ten fold ...at least !!) ;) :chky:
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Im afraid at 30 i dont have much of a life i spend half of it at work, the other half in charity shops/car boots/auctions/antiques fairs/antiques shops (would much prefer it to be 1/4 at work and 3/4 for the rest ;D)
Surpisingly i have had a couple of lucky finds, although i still hold out hope i will have a find like that lady a few years back on antiques roadshow who bought a plant for £1 on a car boot, took it out of the plant pot which she wasnt to keen on, after a friend advised her too took it to AR and they told her it was R Lalique worth £25,000 she sold it shortly after for over £26,000 and she still had the plant ;D.... one day.. one day
It is all still out there we just have to keep looking and researching :thup:
michelle
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Your life sounds like my life LOL. But there are bargains out there like my water set and your PW and I think the more you look and handle stuff and look at what other people find, the better your chances.
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Just going through my books and in the Millers buyers guide glass Jeanette Hayhurst (consultant) On page 219 third row down on the right side, is a Clichy weight that has the same formation as mine, unfortunitly that page is in black and white, but it does say central white rose, so it is different as mine has a purple and white cane.
Nice valuation too, although i know there is a big difference between book price and actual price, plus mines not perfect
cheers
michelle
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I would suggest having the weight looked at by an expert. It probably is in it's original unrestored state and you could have a look at the cost of having it restored and if you wish to sell then go through Sotherby's or another auction house. There is a great collection of Clichy weights at the Museum of Bristol which will compare with yours , so you could contact them for starters. I suggest sending them your photos . Cheers Mike.
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Check out the PCC Website (http://www.paperweightcollectorscircle.org.uk/) photos from the 1999 Exhibition. On the front page of the site, point to the "Events" menu then click on "Past exhibitions". Scroll to bottom of page and click the link "Index here" under 1"999 Christie's, London". Then clck on the entry for "Clichy (Pedestal, Concentric, Scramble, Related Items)".
There are eight weights shown with a variation on the basic concentric theme. The weight titled "Concentric 47" is of the same design and colour ground as the one discussed here.
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Perfect 160 year old paperweights are hard to come by ;) so I wouldn't worry about imperfections.
If you plan to sell it I would recommend against repolishing it, some collectors prefer pieces in their original
condition, and those who like perfection can have it repolished at their own expense and risk,
repolishing does take away a bit of glass and can reduce the appeal of the paperweight.
You loose a little bit of magnification with each repolish and you run the risk of cracks or even total catastrophe.
If you're planning to keep it then it's up to you, I think it looks great as is, but that's just me.
I am no expert on sizes tho so it could have been repolished once already.
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see now i actually agree with you Alexander in principle, if somethings old i like it to look old and bashed about with marks and stains and life. Although when it comes to glass i do like perfection, but as a collector my glass is generally no older than 1960, so i can afford to be picky.
I love the weight as it is and to be honest would have absolutly no idea where to start on having it restored, so dont think i would be to happy about going down that route anyway.
Great site KevH, it is definatly the same weight, slight variations in colour.
I am a little confused at the moment as to what im going to do next, as unfortunitly this isnt one for my collection, although i do really like it, and could quite easily find room for it ;D.
Would my best bet be talking to somebody at one of the big auction houses ?, I certainly wouldnt take it to a local one as they dont seem to consider glass to have any value whatso every (although thats good for me as i buy from there very cheap) I dont really know what sort of value to expect, I thought i had an idea but actually i dont think i do
I know i cant go to much into sales talk as this will be put into market place and forever be lost.
many thanks again
michelle
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If you telephone your local Christies or Sotheby auction house and speak to one of the valuers then you can send them your pics to their email address and they are quite happy giving you an initial estimate/ball park figure based on your description.
Museums tend to direct you to a collectors forum !
I called in on the way back from work today to look at the collection in the Bristol Museum but couldn't spot one like yours on display. It's worth having a look though if you ever find yourself in Bristol. They are all in pristine polished condition . But it is possible to see (on some) just a faint shadow of a circle where they have been knocked in the past.
Good luck !!
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Thanks Mike, there is a Bonhams in Bury, they do a valuation day at Cambridge every so often. I didnt have much luck last time as i took 2 limited eedition Dartington Sharons with the etched Gertrude Hermes, R.A, designs on them. He had no idea about glass, hadnt heard of Hermes and told me to put them on ebay basically... not helpful at all.
I think that is going to be my first port of call though (not Bonhams this time).
Thanks so much for your interest and help it is much apreciated, and if im every near bristol Museum i will certainally make a point of stopping in.
I will of course keep you all informed on further developments with regards to the weight
many thanks again
michelle
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Bonhams would be just as fine too (I'm sure) . I had great help from a valuer in their Bath office. He wasn't quite sure on my piece and he spent time asking his collegues in London . So please don't be put off by one episode !!
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Hi,
I understand your frustration with auction houses. I had many an annoying experience as seller, too. As buyer, however, you can pick up bargains, indeed. :hiclp:
You may wish to consider selling via a French auction house, too. Boisgirard (Important auction house - Paris) holds auctions dedicated to paperweights regularly and about half are antique French. Your weight would get the audience you would wish for it. I include the website below. And don't wory if you contact them, they should be able to communicate in English.
http://www.boisgirard.com/
SophieB
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Is it possible to tell if a weight has been polished other than size/shape ? I would have thought that if this weight has remained unidentifed, up until now, then nobody in the past would have bothered with the expence of having it done ? Cheers Mike.
p.s. Great link Sophie !
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Occasionally, Clichy weights with a colour ground will show a white edge to the ground if the polishing has been extensive.
Any weight that has been polished may have "flat spots" which might not be visible under normal viewing, but can be felt by running fingers gently across the surface.
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I thought I would add this photo from a Sotheby's auction catalogue (I missed it the first time I flicked through !)
The auction was entitled Important Papereights, The Proerty of The New-York Historical Society. It took place in New York on 18th January 1995.
The description is as follows ..
' A Clichy Concentric Millefiori Colour Ground Weight, 19th Century, the clear glass set with six groups of pink pastrymold canes divided by green and yellow pastrymold canes about a row of white edelweiss canes with yellow centres, and a row of pink pastrymold canes about a cluster of tiny elongated green star canes with a red and white floret centre, set on an opaque cobalt-blue ground. (internal crack and scratches) Diameter 6.6 cm.'
Exhibited 7 times , Literature , Paul Hollister, Glass Paperweights of the New-York Historical Society p28 colour plate 10.
There is no mention of any repolishing in the description(if it had been repolished then it would have been mentioned) but the diameter is 1 mm greater than yours. But it might be down to a 1mm tolerance in different weights or measuring errors.
The auction estimate back in 1995 was $400-600 but I have no idea of the final hammer price.
Yours has a garland of tiny cluster star canes which I'm sure will make it more valuable plus no crack !
I'm sure Sotheby's won't mind me publishing this photo espcially if you decide to ask them to auction it!
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Hi all
thanks so much for all your hard work Mike and everybody else
Ive just had a quick chat with a chap at Sotherby's and unfortunitly they dont deal with anything valued under £3000 :o, so do not really sell with paperewights any more. But he did say the best person to speak to would be Simon Cottle at Bonhams. I have given them a call and they have requested that i email Mr Cottle some details of the weight and pictures. I will include a link to this page also.
I have re-measured the weight and believe it is infact 6.6cm in diameter, when looking from a side view you can see the layers in the blue ground and although its not white it looks to be a very pale blue (it is white but still has a thin layer of blue over it, if that makes sense).
Ive run my fingers over it quite a lot and cant find any "flat spots" KevH, but not really knowing what im looking for could mean its highly likely i would have missed it had it been there.
I will of course let you all know any information i get from mr Cottle.
all the best
Michelle
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Just found this through a link in your site KevH
http://www.weights-n-things.com/en/antique-paperweights/france/clichy/turquoise-ground-10-roses.html
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Hi all just an update on the weight i have had a reply from Simon Cottle at Bonhams and this is what he said with regards to the weight
"It dates to about 1850 and appears to have been bruised in the past. I do not think that it has been restored though this may have occurred at some time in its life. Coloured ground examples are often popular and I would estimate your example between £600-800. We regularly sell paperweights through our Fine British and European Glass and Paperweight sales in London of which we hold two a year. The next sale will take place in December. Bonhams is the only international auction house to hold dedicated sales of glass and paperweights."
Which is fab news
many many thanks to all who have spent time researching this weight you are all superb :kissy:
michelle
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Thanks for the update . I didn't know Bonhams were the only major auction house regularly holding important paperweight auctions ! If it were my choice I would keep it :clap: ! The Clichy ' factory' only operated from 1840-1870{when it was liquidated} (see Old Glass Paperweights by Evangeline H. Bergstrom...and no doubt countless other volumes written since). By default, given the short time this works was in existance, it is rare ! It's a superb find !!
Cheers, Mike.
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I didn't know Bonhams were the only major auction house regularly holding important paperweight auctions !
After Sotheby's & Christie's (at least, in London) pulled out of regular paperweight sales, preffering to only handle items with a minimum catalogue value, Bonhams is now the main London outlet for paperweights - with Simon Cottle being one of the few auction staff having paperweight experience.
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Regarding Auction Houses and Identification and Valuation (no names, no pack drill....): there are very few auction houses that have someone on their staff who knows much about paperweights. Many auction houses will offer an opinion, but that opinion may be 'less than accurate', to put it kindly. Usually the error is to suggest something made in Murano, China or by Caithness is antique and valuable - but they can also identify antique French or Bacchus weights as 'millefiori paperweight estimate £20 - £30'.
Even large auction houses make mistakes: one major national firm recently sent a collection of modern American weights (worth maybe £6000 - £8000) to a provincial office, where it was sold in lots of 20 weights at a time, as 'paperweights', not illustrated online or in the catalogue. Needless to say the weights sold for a lot less than the market value. And I recall a London sale recently with an obvious Murano carpet ground described as a 'unique Bacchus'. Another repeated error is 'signed by Paul Ysart with a 'P' cane'.
Some auction houses recognise the issue (which applies to all specialised areas of expertise, not just paperweights of course), and contact more knowledgeable people for advice (there are 3 auction houses who sometimes ask my advice about paperweights, for example). But these are in the minority, and have to recognise that they need to ask in the first place!
If you are selling, expect to lose 30% or more of the hammer price in commission if you sell through any of the major auction houses.
Alan
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Thanks again everyone
With regards to keeping it i would love to and wish we where in a position too, but unfortunitly needs must.
Alan, i havent as yet discussed commision but i was guessing around 25-30%
Its all a gamble really as if you put it into a standard auction its unlikely to raise serious bidders so your sale price is alot lower, or you put it into a higher end auction like Bonhams where your more likely to get serious bidders but pay a higher commision.
I certainly wouldnt put it into any of the sales around here, thats where i buy from so know how badly glass sells.
I think to be honest considering what i initially paid for the weight, i wouldnt worry to much about paying a higher commision.
All the best
michelle
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Have you considered eBay?
You can list it at a reserve of £900 and see what happens.
This type of Clichy usually does well on eBay.
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I would certainly bid on it if you put it on Ebay.
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There is never any harm in trying to sell something at a 'strong' price. However, we have a dozen Clichy colour grounds in our collection, and only 3 cost over £900 - and they were weights 3 inch diameter or more. My feeling for your weight is that it is a £450 - £600 item; but you can be lucky on the day!
Alan
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With regard to selling on ebay, I have sold a number of glass items via ebay with good results . The one thing I would suggest is taking numerous close-up photos of any faults....chips,flea-bites , bruises , scratches etc.. It really helps the buyer(of course). In some ways it gives a better view of an item than a general photo an auction house would post via the internet. You would need to phone the auctioneers to get a verbal description (which isn't as good as a sequence of close-up photos). That is where ebay wins over a general auctioneers description which is limited.
If my spondulicks situation was better than it is now, I too would bid if you listed the weight via ebay. I might however be able to afford this neck tie ::)
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Clichy-Party-Decoration-Necktie/dp/B001GSM7P6/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qid=1275062693&sr=8-8
All the best ! Mike.
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Hi
i found well stummbled on a clichy at a car boot bought for £3 sold on ebay for £577 on that
it looked like this one
(http://www.pwts.org.uk/exhib99/Antique/French/Clichy/30bouq.JPG)
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this is the actual weight i new i had a pic of it somewhere
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/th_100_4727.jpg?t=1275834135)
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BARGAIN stew2u2, proves there are still some out there.
Ive had an email from a private clichy dealer/collector who has asked me not to name them but has agreed i can share the additional information they have given me on this weight.
They think the value is should reach £1000 plus, due to the rare purple central flower cane and the turquoise ground which is a very desirable colour, they also said the colours have been set well against each other making it a nice example.
Now im still a little dazzled to be honest and im trying to ignore figures as everybody has there own ideas and valuations, im just taking the lowest value which would be fabulous and anything over that would be a huge bonus
Many many thanks, and i will keep you all informed as to any information or progress with regards to the weight
michelle
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BARGAIN stew2u2, proves there are still some out there.
Ive had an email from a private clichy dealer/collector who has asked me not to name them but has agreed i can share the additional information they have given me on this weight.
They think the value is should reach £1000 plus, due to the rare purple central flower cane and the turquoise ground which is a very desirable colour, they also said the colours have been set well against each other making it a nice example.
Now im still a little dazzled to be honest and im trying to ignore figures as everybody has there own ideas and valuations, im just taking the lowest value which would be fabulous and anything over that would be a huge bonus
Many many thanks, and i will keep you all informed as to any information or progress with regards to the weight
michelle
hi thanks for that i think lol :cry: already sold it for £577 i was very happy with that and so was the buyer by the sounds of it
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sorry stew2u2 i meant to put a gap after the first line, the email i had was about my weight, so dont worry its not your one lol, sounds like it went well anyway especially for what you paid for it.
michelle
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:rah: its now in the market place
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,34631.new.html#new
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:hi: Hi Michelle, congrats, thats a wonderful find..I know nothing about weights, but can see that's beautiful. Well done, oh yes, nearly forgot, I've got 'sixpence' on my ebay favourites....the best people crop up all over the place!!!!!!! cheers steph.
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cheers Steph are you one of my watchers?? its upto 63 watchers now, jon said last night 60 of them are friends family and GMB"ers"
At last i have made it to the dizzing heights of pottery, porcelain and glass section on ebay pulse (page on ebays most watched items, 7th place, 3rd on glass and 2nd on paperweights)
cheers all
michelle
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cheers Steph are you one of my watchers?? its upto 63 watchers now, jon said last night 60 of them are friends family and GMB"ers"
At last i have made it to the dizzing heights of pottery, porcelain and glass section on ebay pulse (page on ebays most watched items, 7th place, 3rd on glass and 2nd on paperweights)
cheers all
michelle
hi put a bid in but was rejected :cry: you didnt want a fiver ;D nice weight and good luck.
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ahhh bless stew2u2, i didnt reject you lol, it just got swolled up on the reserve >:D
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My experience of selling suggests that you need 25 - 30 watchers for each 'meaningful' bidder, who tend to enter the fray at the last minute. However, if your reserve is anything like the figures discussed earlier, then I doubt it will sell, given the size and condition. But good luck!
Alan
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Hi there
no reserve is at the lowest end of discussion, if it doesnt sell i will put it into the sale offered at Bonhams.
It now has 78 watchers but has completly dropped off ebay pulse on all catogories for some reason, it was on ebays feature page yesterday and the day before.
many thanks
michelle
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:hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp:
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Hi Michelle
You appear to have had two or three serious bidders, as predicted! But a reasonable result, I think.
Now, how many more of these antiques barns do you know about....? And where are they....?
Alan
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haha i was just saying to steph on facebook, i had my little antique Baccarat for £4 and my Clichy for £8, im now after a St Louis for around £6 to complete my french antique paperweight experience... fingers crossed for me ;D
michelle
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Ive only just had the chance to actually look at the bidding and over all there was just 6 different bidders and as you say just 3 of which serious money bidders
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im now after a St Louis for around £6 to complete my french antique paperweight experience...
Don't forget a Pantin at £7 and a St Mande at £3. And there must be something out there for a fiver. Happy hunting! My mission in life is to find a Clichy swirl for under a tenner ... :fr:
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Ehhhh, mais Oui, moi aussi ! :fr: :fr:
Good luck with your next find Michelle , ......good result....I just wish bidders on ebay wouldn't leave everything to the last seconds....what if your connection went down ? .....or there was a power cut ?? Why risk it ? Cheers, Mike.
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I just wish bidders on ebay wouldn't leave everything to the last seconds....what if your connection went down ? .....or there was a power cut ?? Why risk it ?
The under bidder and the winner had most likely left automated bids with a "sniping program", so there was no risk from their personal connection going down or even not being quick enough on the keyboard or mouse.
Does anybody these days really try to manually enter eBay bids within the last minute of an auction?
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Actually, I do..... I like doing it manually... always have..... I always figure if my connection goes down I was not meant to own it.... and it never has...... and I just got a vase from Michelle with 3 seconds left on the clock... gotta love it.... :chky:
Craig
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I'm in Craig's camp.
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I must admit my final bid is always a snipe and has been for a number of years. :bat: :bat:
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I dont tend to buy very much off ebay, but when i do im always a manual bidder, i have to do it at 17 seconds because im not quick enough, and then i get in a panic, i think jon can do it at 10 seconds.
I also have the same opinion as Craig if i dont win i was never meant to have it, i put the very highest im willing to go and that way i dont get into a bidding war
michelle
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The net result of a number of last second bidders/snipers >:D on ebay is the same as sealed bids...you cannot possibly react in time to such bids so the person who is prepared to pay the most obviously wins. Perhaps it should be re-named 'sealed-bid-bay' ! ....nahhhh !
Next time I bid for something on ebay I will do the auto-snipe as Kev suggests >:D (I didn't know about that !)
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Sure, the bidder that is willing to pay the most always wins..... I just prefer to be doing it myself rather than having a program on a server somewhere do it and then I look later..... I always bid inside 5 seconds..... and I always have.... and I always bid once..... unless the thing is really cheap, no one has bid, and I am concerned the seller will pull it. Then on occasion I will open it, and actually bid my price within the last 5 seconds.... I tried sniping programs a couple of times.... I just like doing it myself... MY first bid on ebay was a snipe, every bid on ebay since has been a snipe, and my last bid will be also.... >:D
Craig
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It's interesting that an antique French paperweight has fostered a debate on the pros & cons of Auction House V Ebay :thup:
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As a relative newbie to all this bidding stuff (tee hee! - no comments please kev, jamalpa etc :-X), I have to say that sniping is a very good discipline. You decide what to bid, make the bid - and sit back. It is very like making a commission bid. Decision made - wait for the outcome.
Bidding live - whether in person at the auction, or online via the auction house, or on ebay etc, always provides the temptation of 'just one more bid and it will be mine..'. Exciting, yes (my pulse gets to dangerous levels sometimes...especially in the auction room), but the result is not always good for my bank account - but maybe for the auctioneer's, and the seller's. :sm:
Alan
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I never bid on ebay with any time left to increase the amount.... I place an all or nothing bid at the very last second..... and I guess I rather enjoy the increased heart rate.... I don't drink, smoke, and quit recreational drugs decades ago.... so you gotta get a thrill somehow, and my addiction to my Rancilio espresso machine just doesn't cut it all the time...... :thup:
As far as live auctions go, I have gone for so many years (should I say decades) that I have developed a strong discipline of setting a max bid for an item and sticking with it..... Also, having run a live auction for several years, I have seen far too many people decide to "win" at all costs, and pay way way way too much for an item...... Much to the auctioneer's and seller's delight.... also been the monetary recipient of such fun on ebay on occasion.......
Craig
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I have to confess to being a confirmed 'sniper', if only to avoid having to be up in the middle of the night to bid on items in foreign lands.
One word of caution - my last three snipes have been swiftly followed by messages from ebay telling me that my account has been the subject of "unusual activity" and that they've reset my password to protect me. The sniper site I use needs to know my ebay username and password of course.