Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on June 13, 2010, 05:55:32 PM
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Would appear to be a 'dead ringer' for photo 394 (p. No. 195) in Barrie Skelcher's "Big Book of Vaseline Glass" - and like the example shown, mine has been through the wars as well - but I guess a few knocks are to be expected if it's about 160 years old. What I'm looking for, however, is peoples' opinions on why the surface is so 'crazed' and 'etched looking'. Under a lens the surface appears covered in the most minute irregular 'tessera', and seems not to be as smooth as you would be expect. Might this effect have been caused by the contents at some time, or is it more likely that the bottle has been stored near to some acid like substance? Interestingly, that part of the stopper which sits within the neck of the bottle seems smooth and unaffected. I would be very interested in anyone's thoughts, and thanks for looking. :)
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Could it be crizzling?
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Looks more as if it's been left out in a sandstorm, or got itself into a washing machine....... or down the U-bend?
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I fink you might find this interesting. ;)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,3221.msg24914.html#msg24914
(and remember I've just scrubbed and painted the garage doors again, so that's why I have revolting fingernails!) :-[
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For the scientifically minded, this article explains crizzling http://www.vam.ac.uk/res_cons/conservation/journal/consjournal29/crizzling29/index.html
It doesn't mention lead glass, but the chemistry must be similar
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sincere thanks to all of you - as I'm presently at work, and in theory at least being paid for doing work completely unrelated to glass ;D ;D, so I'm unable to digest what, especially Max and Christine, have kindly contributed. I will look later, but can say it is fascinating to see another piece with the same defects. Perhaps it was a 'rogue' batch at the B. & S. factory at one particular time. However, don't think that we Brits. should call it 'Vaseline' - should we? ;D
"scrubbed and painted the garage doors again" - sounds like this a regular feature of your life Max :)
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(and remember I've just scrubbed and painted the garage doors again, so that's why I have revolting fingernails!) Embarrassed
Must be catching, I've just done mine too ::)
And painted the front of the house................ :thup:
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Hi Emmi is hubby scared of ladders? >:D ;D ;)
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LOL! No, but I like painting!!! We are the ultimate odd couple, he cooks, I paint walls :24:
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It would be tedious to comment further on the wise words that have gone before - sufficient to say thanks again to Max for posting the links to her similar bottle, and to Christine for posting the results of our income tax investments with the V. & A. I have also been 'dump digging' (that's not dump in our sense) and would agree with Frank - I don't recall bottles coming out looking like this. Max doesn't comment about her toilet water bottle 'weeping/bleeding', and mine certainly doesn't (seems as dry as a bone), and I'm not remotely qualified to comment re the sweating or tasting of vinegar issues. So, having read most of the thread and links, I'm going with the idea of 'crizzling' as suggested by Christine, and give just a couple of extracts from the V. & A. techie article to support my amateur opinion;
"these 'high alkali, low lime' glasses also suffer from poor chemical durability.
"This poor durability manifests itself in a number of ways, but one of the most distressing is crizzling. A crizzled surface will become covered with minute surface cracks, which over time will grow and penetrate the whole body of the glass and lead to its physical collapse...
"and it is this cycle of hydration and dehydration that occurs during environmental fluctuations which leads to the formation of surface cracks. The surface swells as it absorbs moisture, and shrinks as it loses moisture"
I'm more than convinced my piece has never been in the ground - so maybe it was just a poor batch mix on rare occasions, and the unaffected stopper base remains o.k. because trapped in the neck of the bottle it was not exposed to oxygen which, combined with a 'high alkali' metal destroys the integrity of the glass. In fact the crizzling has penetrated the full thickness of the bottle (I didn't think it had at first). Anyone want a used 'crizzled' U. toilet water bottle :)
Streuth, wish I'd never bought the thing - think I will bury it in the ground.
P.S. In fact Max I would never have thought of commenting on your nails,......sniff - sniff - sniff ....hang on - is that peacock I can smell ;)
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Streuth, wish I'd never bought the thing - think I will bury it in the ground.
Paul, I think the 'curious condition' of the bottle makes it all the more intersting and worth hanging on to... It would be a shame to unlove it just because it's a little different. :spls:
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I'm sure this is not crizzled, which is an internal condition only apparent when the sun shines. This is more a case of burst bubbles - tiny inclusions exposed to air when they were panel cut. It could be a glass condition (gas) or a contamination (refractory material) - but it is interesting enough to hang on to.
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sorry - just being a bit flippant :) Don't think I could grow to love it exactly, but will certainly put it away into a box and keep it somewhere :) - then take it out when I am old/older and go all nostalgic. Anik.......come up and see me some time, and you may have it ;)
To quote Ivo......."I'm sure this is not crizzled, which is an internal condition only apparent when the sun shines. This is more a case of burst bubbles - tiny inclusions exposed to air when they were panel cut".
Can only say Ivo, that this 'condition' is very apparent without any need for the sunshine, and gives an appearance of being semi-opaque(?) - and do you really mean 'panel cut' - I had assumed this was mould blown glass??
However, as I said, these were only my amateur thoughts.
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Anik.......come up and see me some time, and you may have it ;)
I'll be taking the next bus... ;D
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I wouldn't say it's crizzling either, but unless you're actually holding the item, it could look like that in photos. I do find it very intriguing that both our bottles have exactly the same defect...and you mention another one in the Big Book of Vaseline Glass Paul? Does that look exactly the same?
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I always take "crizzling" to mean a network of cracks, not this pitting of the surface.
I may be biased, :24: but crizzle is the name used for the cracks deliberately produced on the surface of a hot gather by plunging it into cold water, a technique used at Mdina. The surface was further treated with silver chloride being introduced into the cracks, then recased and blown again.
As is most beautifully demonstrated in John's recent thread, showing his "Crizzle Stone".
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,34239.0.html
The surface of this uranium glass bottle looks decidedly pitted to me.
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For a while I had a uranium piece which had some random areas of this sort of surface. On other parts, it had water damage and was also badly chipped. It looked like it had been buried in a dump and unearthed.
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No the Skelcher one is fine; it just has normal damage. Crizzling came before Mdina Sue; it was what George Ravenscroft's glass suffered from before he got his lead glass formula right. Whatever it is, if not crizzling as a result of contact with water and a dodgy formula, then it is something similar, i.e., chemical instability as a result of a dodgy formula leading to physical instability. These things take time so the bottles would have been fine when they were shipped and probably for the next 70/80 years.
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:kissy:
I know it came long before Mdina - for example, the Monart Cloissonne pieces, I just sort of thought that perhaps as the "official" title of the effect used at Mdina is "crizzle", it would be a good example to show, as the effect is actually picked out in colour.
Thanks for making it much clearer!
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I had vaguely wondered after I posted whether this was a pulegoso type effect, but there are too may open pits on the moulded surfaces.
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It is odd that it's so consistent. Paul, could you get some more pictures of the surface, particularly where the stopper goes from the lid to the ground section.
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I don't have a clue, but I will add this -- that I found on the net:
http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/eatoc2.html (Quoted from there):
crisselling or crizzling. A deterioration in glass, due to an incorrect chemical composition notably excess alkali. Sometimes seen on ancient glass. The surface feels moist, and the glass will eventually decompose and crumble. The presence or absence of this defect cannot be used as an indication of the date alone. The exception being Chinese glass where it is thought to be less common in post 18th century glass.
???
So I too am clueless...unless this could have something to do with it.....Could it have been in the Ocean at one time, and found? I dunno, just a thought -- as I found this. Not sure IF this relates at all ...
http://seaglassblog.blogspot.com/
Quoted from that Link:
"That frosty, pitted surface is what many sea glass hunters, historians and collectors admire. At right: Machine tumbled, craft glass created for floral arranging and landscaping. Though craft glass and machine tumbled glass can be pretty, it should not be called sea glass. It's not been through the historic journey that (for example) a 1900's bottle or tableware piece has endured at the hands of the sea's unique conditioning and smoothing process."
:huh: Just a WILD guess...........
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It's not sea glass Rose :) It would be unlikely that the stopper would stay with the bottle whilst in the ocean...and also that my identical bottle & stopper did the same thing. As far as I'm concerned, sea glass (like the glass you find on a beach...old bottle glass generally) appears frosted and smooth without this curious pitting. :) :)
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Cathy - this is not an easy piece to photograph - somehow the light seems to bounce off a little too much, and trying to capture the surface pitting/corrosion is difficult. However, this evening I will have another go and post some more pictures for you. On the first Tuesday of the month (afternoons only) the V. & A. in London offer a 'you bring it in, and we just might be able to tell you what it is' day, so I will take this piece with me. In view of Christine's offering taken from the museum's technical notes, I'm hoping they are able to be more positive on this particular piece. As far as I know, the appearance of 'Sea glass' is due solely to the effects of abrasion by sand and pebble, over a long period of time - a giant sized tumbler in effect.
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this then is for Cathy..........hope you can see the lower part of the stopper which, although damaged and scratched, does show a much smoother area from the bottom up almost towards the first 'waist'. The other pic. does show better the minute crazing, I hope. :)
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That's crizzling.
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...and that's not how mine looks! Which is very odd really! I'll do some pics tomorrow or Friday and add them. :thup:
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I was just having a browse through some bits in the cafe and came across a link in one of antiquerose's threads http://www.vaselineglass.org/FACTORY.HTML look at the 18th picture down, i think its the same
"Boston & Sandwich Glass Co. cologne bottle, c. 1840-1870"
michelle
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'er we went there on page 1 :kissy:
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im not avin a good day today Christine :-[ :pb: :nogos: just ignore me
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Awww Michelle :hug:
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I know the feeling well - never mind - if you're ever up my way, do let me know so you can come and visit! :-*
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That's crizzling.
:hiclp: :hiclp:
(PS Much better photos of the effect, Paul.)
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That's crizzling.
:hiclp: :hiclp:
(PS Much better photos of the effect, Paul.)
Crizzling:
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_disease
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_glass
~ http://www.vam.ac.uk/res_cons/conservation/journal/consjournal29/crizzling29/index.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,24156.0.html
http://www.glassmaking-in-london.co.uk/fitzwilliam/chapter2
?? Just trying to input something :huh:
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Maybeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......it is really old?
http://www.mindspring.com/~reyne/canary.html
http://www.reference.com/browse/George+Ravenscroft
(quote from that Link:)
"Early Ravenscroft glass (1674-1676) developed crizzling (gradual, unstoppable deterioration characterized by numerous cracks, making the glass look cloudy) quickly (within 1-2 years) because of some fault in the type or components of the glass-making mixture; excessive alkaline salts or insufficient amounts of lime, which acts as a stabilizer, have been suggested as possible causes. No early pieces are known to exist today. More pieces created by Ravenscroft may exist, but in the absence of the raven’s head seal, which he stopped using in about 1677, or any descriptions or drawings of his designs it is difficult to positively attribute particular pieces to him. Some pieces thought to strongly resemble Ravenscroft’s work bear an “S” seal; some have suggested that the “S” stands for “Savoy,” Ravenscroft’s main production facility, while others believe that the “S” stands for “ Southwark,” indicating the South London glassworks of John Bowles and William Lillington. "
Known Ravenscroft Glass Vessels Bearing the Raven’s Head Seal Description
Date of Manufacture Location Condition
Bowl 1676-1677 Victoria & Albert Museum, London, UK Crizzled
Bowl with Stand 1676-1677 Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge, UK Crizzled
Roemer 1676-1677 Victoria & Albert Museum, London, UK Crizzled
Roemer 1676-1677 Corning Museum of Glass, Corning, NY, USA Crizzled
Roemer 1677-1678 Muzeum Narodowe, Warsaw, Poland Not crizzled
Bottle 1676-1677 British Museum, London, UK Slightly crizzled
Jug 1676-1677 Cecil Higgins Museum, Bedford, UK Crizzled
Tankard 1676-1677 Victoria & Albert Museum, London, UK Crizzled
Posset pot Unknown Toledo Museum of Art, Toledo, OH, USA Not crizzled
Posset pot 1677-1678 Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge, UK Unknown
Data from table above taken from ,, and ......
Just ignore me IF I am in Left-Field :24: :pb: It is OK ;)