Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: neilh on September 04, 2010, 04:24:28 PM
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I had an interesting photo come in to my website this week. Burtles & Tate registration 29106, from 1885, is of a flower boat but as so often with these things, it is unclear exactly what is being registered. The pattern? The shape? Both together?
I've been sent a photo of an item that also bears the reg number 29106 and the same pattern as the flower boat, but quite a different shape. I ran it past Dave Peterson who confirmed he has seen one of these in vaseline glass. The sides are 15cms long and it again appears to be a flower holder, like so many Burtles & Tate registrations.
So quite a different shape lurking under number 29106...
Thanks to Roy for the photo of the boat and J&J Jefferson for the photo of the triangle thing...
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Neil, Jenny Thompson* gives no. 29106 as "pattern of flower boat", which may or may not be helpful! ::) * The Identification of English Pressed Glass 1842 -1908
Seriously though, as she seems to have transcribed what was shown in the registers, I would think that the boat was the original registered design, and that the same pattern was later used for other items... would that make sense?
Could we add copies of the images into the Registered Design number reference album on GlassGallery please? http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=763
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Hi Anne,
The images were given to my site but I'm sure the owners would not mind putting them in the gallery, so it's fine by me. Roy = mhgcgolfclub !
I have a photo of the original design sketch for 29106 and it is of the flower boat in Roy's picture. I say design sketch but actually it is a photograph. Some of these registrations are also a valuable source of Victorian photography. Burtles & Tate started to photograph their glass with design number 20085 in January 1885.
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Hi Neil, so that does sort of confirm my theory perhaps?
I'll ask Roy for his consent re the photo too. Thanks! :)
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Hi
I have given Neil the OK to use any of my pictures , as to the triangle shape bowl its not an item that I have seen before
Roy
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Thanks Roy. Neil and J&J Jefferson, now added into the RD album here:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=763
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Unfortunately, going on line to the National Archives (at Kew) refines the search down to the No. and date only. You will need to visit in person and physically cross check the Representations and Regisration Design Nos. to resolve this one ;D - and, of course, you will need to register yourself in order to access these details. :) My fees are quite modest :24:
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Whilst at Kew today, I pre-requested Registration data for No. 29106 - but on arrival could access only part of my request. Apparently, some of the data comes in large size paper format, and these can only be looked at in the map room because of the need for large tables to support the paperwork - and presently the map room is closed (for couple of weeks I beleive). Thought it might be possible to see whether it was the design or the shape that was being referred to. The only part of this Registration that I could access was the basic Reg. No. as written in the original journal, and this was unhelpful really. It simply shows (in columns from the left).........
29106 IV 9 bc
handwritten of course - and the lower case 'b' is cancelled with a double slash. The Roman 4 is, of course, the Class, but what the 9 bc means I haven't a clue, unless someone has an idea. So not very enlightening, but if it is of interest, I will be returning duirng the Christmas hols., and will try again.
I did take a pic. of this page on the digital camera, plus a pic. of the spine of the book.........as thought it might be more accurate and interesting to show the data, rather than trying to explain in words only. However, when I checked with the copyright guys at Kew, they got a little touchy and said I couldn't show these on the GMB without the o.k. from the Copyright big cheese, so that's why you aint seeing my pics. today. :cry: I will check with the correct guy during the week.
I hope, of course, that people don't object to my butting in on this thread. If there is an issue, please say so, and I shall desist. :)
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Hi Paul,
Over the last couple of years I've been to Kew and photographed all the Manchester registrations up in the map room. It's a bit of a test of stamina at times as it takes a long time for each pattern book to appear and they can be very heavy! As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this particular item exists in the pattern book as a photo. Most Burtles & Tate registrations were photos from 1885 onwards. The photo was of the flower boat.
What's less clear with these registrations is whether just one item was made, matching the registration, or whether the registration was meant to cover the pattern or shape, in which case there could be several items under the same registration number. Some of the registrations do say "pattern only" or show a range of tableware.
In the case of 29106, it says "design for flower boat", but we can see there were at least two items made under that number. The record so far would have to be a Percival & Vickers registration from 1878 for a dish, which in fact was just one item from a large tableware set of over 50 pieces...
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going to bed now neil, and in London for much of tomorrow, but will comment hopefully before I go out in the morning, as I believe there is more text data to be accessed at Kew, hopefully. :)
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Good Morning All,
I am the owner of the Burtles & Tate 29106 Triangle Thingy. I purchased it at a local Antique show in August and I was still researching my bowl? when I came across this site. I originally contacted the Molineaux & Webb site and sent Neil the Photo posted here and he very kindly sent me a copy of the patent. The only thing I believe is as other members here pointed out, is that once the pattern of acorns and leaves was registered along with the shape is that the pattern could be used on other articles.
( I have a bowl with the no. 92571 registered to J Stembridge & Co 1888 and have found the glass pattern on a number of different articles all bearing the same registered number.) I have found a number of 29106 boats for sale and mentioned in sites but nothing on the triangle, I would assume there would have been at least a few made and survived. Thank you all for interest and look forward to any other information received I am glad I have found this site and such knowledgable members.
Janelle
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neil - may I ask if, when at Kew, you have looked at more than just the picture file for 29106. I ask as I believe there is some additional text information available in a separate file (for which I have the ref.) - and I didn't want to go to the Archives for a morning if you had already looked and drawn a blank.
There appear to be three files......one is simply the original Reg. No. entry I saw yesterday, second will be the file for pictures only..........and thirdly I am informed there is another file with written information.
Not much point in going back I guess if you have seen all of these. :)
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Hi Paul,
I have only viewed the images in the large pattern books. I did not consult any of the written info (indexes?) available at Kew. I used the lists in Slack / Thompson books to find the items. I did come across one or two which were not in Jenny Thompson's book, so I am guessing she must have gone through the lists first and missed a couple in the pattern books, whether through errors in the index or human error, who can say.
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thanks neil - I will in that case have one more try when the map room re-opens, and if I do discover additional information will advise. :)
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did get back to Kew, but unfortunately not a great deal wiser in terms of resolving the triangular flower. Two further archival volumes give the following:
1...........(No image - text only)
'No. 29106 - class 4
Burtles Tate and Company - Poland Street - Oldham Road - Manchester.
Flint Glass Manufacturers
Nature of Design: Pattern of Flower Boat
date: 29.6.1885'
2...........(image and text)
'29106 Design for Flower Boat
Redistered by Burtles Tate & Company - Poland Street - Oldham Road - Manchester.
image is of the flower boat' (although not in glass, I feel).
So - one entry says 'Pattern of Flower Boat', and the other, as neil has already commented, says, - 'Design for Flower Boat'. I would hazard a guess, therefore, that No. 29106 is registering the shape, since both entries use the word 'boat'. This doesn't, of course, resolve the issue of how the No. is justifiably used on the triangular bowl, and what for me was frustrating, was the fact the during this most recent visit I was unable to find any indication of a means of cross reference from the boat to the triangular bowl. End of the story for me I think. :)
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Thank you Paul for taking the time to check out Burtles & Tate 29106 Boat Flower Vase - Triangle and to all who helped.
I guess it will have to remain a mystery. Hopefully someday the Vaseline one will show up somewhere.
. PS I tried some flowers in it, but not really successful ,they would have to be really small and certainly not much room for many, so it will stay just a lovely piece of glass to enjoy and wonder about.
JJ
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I think one of the fashions for flower arrangements from Victorian times through to the 1950s was to use very small flowers like violets and primroses or larger flower heads all with very short stems in a closepack arrangement.
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I'm new to this board and recently became aware of a posting by JJ hoping to see a Burtles, Tate & Co. Vaseline triangle. I have this piece in Vaseline and cropped it from a larger photo. Hope it's not too late to reply to older posts?
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Hello tlfoozer,
thank you for posting a photo of your triangle. Nice to know mine is not alone. Since posting this originally, I have not found another triangle except yours, but I have found a small 1/2 curve flower trough, and a long straight flower trough, all in Vaseline glass and marked with the 29106 registered number. I suppose since B&T registered the design of the flower boat they also registered the pattern on it and used it on other things. I still wonder why so little of the other designs show up.
The only difference in all the other pieces, including yours are they are in Vaseline glass with the yellow tinge whereas mine is clear to white type of opalescence. More like you see in the B&T shoes. I have saved photos of the other troughs and wonder if any more shapes will turn up. Hope you enjoy yours like I do mine.
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Hi Tom
Welcome to the GMB
Roy ;)
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Some pictures of a posy vase.
Roy
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And a wall-pocket. :)
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Photos of additional colours and/or shapes for Burtles, Tate & Co. RD 29106:
Pink opalescent boat to match that shown in Neils’s opening post;
Yellow opalescent curved trough with round ends to match that in Roy’s reply #20 post;
Opalescent curved trough with squared ends – quite a pale yellow-green base colour;
Opalescent long, narrow, rectangular trough – 30.5 x 4.75 x 4.5 cm – quite a pale yellow-green base colour again.
Fred.
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Here is one i found the weekend in uranium.
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Just putting some pics together for my website showing the Ancoats Glass Exhibition we held, there was one photo of items being discussed here, alas the quality was not too good so it won't go on my site but I thought you might want to see it here