Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on September 17, 2010, 08:19:11 PM
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this is as much for interest as for an id of use please. 7 inches/175mm diameter - acid etched back of bowl section, and the base star is actually cut. Small wines and sherries showing this geometric etching are not uncommon - although I had not previously seen a platter/bowl/plate/dish, or whatever this should correctly be called. On larger pieces this patterning is attractive - and although this not not an example of the Greek Key motif, it does remind you of that sort of symmetrical design. Looking at the books, this machine made decoration seems to have started around the middle of the C19, and doubtless went on well into the early C20. There is internal wear to the bowl, although not a lot, but seemingly almost none to the underside. The bowl part is about 10 - 12mm/0.5 inch deep. Anyone like to take a punt as to age, and/or use please. Thanks for looking.
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Stand for a bottle of wine? :huh: No idea about an ID. :-\
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Underplate for a bowl?
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Paul, I wonder if changing the title of this thread would get more people looking? Maybe something like 'ID Small geometric engraved plate, what was it used for?' - whaddya think? :)
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Anne and Max - thanks for the your ideas. Since posting yesterday ( and looking at Anne's suggestion) - I have remembered that in the second half of the C19 (at least) a piece of table kit (no doubt for the better off) was a finger bowl. Might this possibly be the 'stand' in which the finger bowl might have sat? Just an idea anyway - but leave it to you entirely Max to adjust the title however you see fit, to give wider appeal or whatever. Thanks :)
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Dunnit. :)
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Hi
This is a wild guess, but how about a cake plate?
In England, in the nineteenth century, Madeira cake was often served with a glass of Madeira or other sweet wine (hence the name). Perhaps a serving plate for this would be included with a set of wine glasses or available to purchase as an optional exta. Think ratafias (small macaroon biscuits) were similarly offered as accompaniment to sweet wines.
It's one theory anyway!
Veronica
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thanks Veronica - and really appreciate your suggestion, which is just as good as anyone else's at the moment :) It is true that the size of this piece is about the same size of what we might now call a 'tea plate'. Must admit you seem knowedgeable regarding cake and sweet wines - and frankly I had never before heard of the word 'ratafias', despite having noshed many a macaroon biscuit over the years - so thanks for the information. I'm inclined to consider the date of this 'plate/bowl' to be roughly 1850 - 1880 ish, although I suppose it might be later. What do you consider was the height of the Madeira drinking period.? :)
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Shape reminded me of my Stuart bowls and underplates here Paul:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,34248.0.html
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Hi Paul, please you liked my idea of a cake plate!
According to Wiki, Madeira wine, which is a fortified wine, was at the height of its popularity in the 18th century, and at the end of its popularity c. 1850 when beset by some cultivation disease.
Its popularity in UK probably encouraged by the British fleet, under Nelson, occupying Madeira during the Napoleonic Wars, leaving in 1814 ish.
Ratafias were also another name for liqueur type alcoholic drinks, flavourings infused in alcohol and left for some months (a bit like sloe gin) and often home made and the almond ratafia biscuits an accompaniment to them.
Rather think both of these were seen as 'ladies drinks' and perhaps considered slightly more refined and genteel than spirits. Sipped as an occasional small glass with snack, between meals, rather than consumed as a means of becoming blotto! Also, the nature of both alcohols meant that they could both be kept for months once the bottle was opened without deteriorating.
Regency period with its simplicity, neo classical lines and the great days of the aristos undertaking Grand Tour of Italy, Greece etc. would surely tie in with Greek Key design of plate? I know design continued in popularity until Edwardian times but when was it first utilised in ceramics, glass, jewellery, woodwork and architecture in UK? Probably around this time but I couldn't give you a date.
Veronica
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Hi again
Having looked again at the photo, you say that it is not the Greek Key pattern, but I think it is a form of it.
Have a look at this webpage on Greek Key patterns http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/greekkey/intro.htm and your pattern seems to consist of what they refer to as the meander plus the generator!
To me it looks Edwardian, again would tie in with classical revival, Sheraton style furniture etc
Veronica
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I have seen quite a few pieces of this type of glass over the years , in all shapes and sizes, wine coasters for glasses or bottles under plates for finger bowls ice plates and i have bought several large footed tazzas that i treasure ( YES Paul for peanuts) i believe several firms made them Webb for one . Love em .jp sorry i must be drunk spellcheck tells me they are razzas jp ::)
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I have twice started this reply ... and in the light of Veronica's rapid comments, have now twice revised my reply :) - and I apologise in advance that this reply is rather long and has little to do with glass. I think Anne is going to throw this into the cafe. I'm not going to amend a third time.......sorry jp. but thanks for the enebriated response. ;D
Veronica - wow, thanks for both the culinary and history lessons. Thought the history of the liqueur type drinks very interesting - maybe C19 Regency sipping of drinks was an improvement on Hogarth's 'Gin Lane and Beer Street depravity.
As to the history of the Greek Key Motif/Design - it seems that it was a common ornamental pattern from the second half of the C18 (Georgian) onwards, both in architecture and jewellery (at least for the U.K.), petering out in the late C19 - so guess it may not have arisen solely from the Grand Tours - which were mostly to Italy, I believe.
It appears that I may have always been wrong, but in the sense that the 'key' motif' is normally understood to represent the outline, quite literally, of a key - then my piece fails in this respect. However, I hear what you say, and have looked at your link, and the outlines of the various parts that make up repeating patterns. I would think that you are right in what you say, and that the idea of a 'key motif' should not be seen as needing to actually look like a key in outline.
When you say that my pattern looks Edwardian (you may well be correct) - I have seen many examples of the traditional (key shape) key motif pattern, but don't recall having seen this precise pattern.
You refer to 'Edwardian Sharaton' - and by this I take it that you are referring to what is a sub-division of the Georgian revival i.e. copying the Adam style which originates in the late C18. This was a revival 'style' popular from about 1875 through to something like the end of the Edwardian period (1910).
Is historic design your 'thing' - rather than glass?
Anne - although I remain unsure of the use of these bowls, but whatever the purpose, then yes, I agree that my example may well be for a similar use, as it looks very much like yours. What were they for, desert of some kind?? Unless I have missed it somewhere, you don't give the size of your underplates.
Don't think I will collect any more of this design - one is enough. ;D
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apologies - (had some fantastic single malt today from Islay) - the correct spelling is 'inebriated'. :-[
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Hi Paul i am as sober as a judge if you can find a sober judge , or is it a jug ? :thud:
The Botanist/ Designer Dr Christopher Dresser used lots of variations of the Greek Key on his wares . c1880 .
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must admit jp, I didn't know he was into the plants as well.
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Hi Paul
In answer to your question:-
Is historic design your 'thing' - rather than glass?
I am interested in design, past and present, and glass, amongst other things. I cannot see how anyone can be seriously interested in glass without a corresponding serious interest in design, to me the two go hand in hand.
You are right in that the Grand Tour often focussed on Italy but some ventured further afield to Greece, Balkans and Near East; Byron, for example. The standard classical education included both Latin and Ancient Greek and study of their respective ancient texts and therefore the whole of the classical world was known to them and held some interest. Think it depended upon the courage of' the individual and the size of his purse. Italy was nearer, safer and easier.
Anyway, returning to the Greek Key pattern, it is also found in Roman mosaics, at Pompeii, for example, so even those visiting Italy came across it.
Veronica
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quote today from Veronica - 'I cannot see how anyone can be seriously interested in glass without a corresponding serious interest in design, to me the two go hand in hand'.
Very laudable comment, but you'd be surprised how many people here won't even know what it is that you are talking about. The ebay sellers simply want an attribution so they can sell switly and move on the the next piece, and for too many people glass is simply something that shatters if dropped.
Byron certainly did the Grand Tour thingy, and then again later when he was fleeing his creditors and for screwing his half sister, and then ended up 'pushing up daisies' in Greece - just the sort of character that real history is made of. Unfortunately, it didn't prove 'safe' for him.
I would have thought that there is less attributable design in glass now than, say, back when this plate was made. I guess it's just another case of the conceptual versus the traditional. Of course if the makers just made sure their name was always etched on, then we wouldn't have a problem. ;)
You have obviously chosen a very interesting angle in glass study - should keep you busy for ever I would think. As for a date on my 'plate' - and in view of comments from more knowedgeable people than me..........we will have to leave it as possibly somewhere between 1880 and 1910, and I might take it with me on one of my visits to the V. & A. - for their opinion.
thanks for your interesting contribution to this thread. :)
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Paul you could always email pics to the V & A, I did so recently for the first time with an unusual old ceramic bowl and was delighted by their swift and detailed response. The bowl was no great shakes, but old and had aroused my curiousity and I really appreciated their reply. Many thanks for the kind comments still trying to get to grips with message board - this is my first experience of this form of communication!
Veronica
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hi ! this plate looks to me like the glass insert of an plated epergne made by elkington - somethink like that ...
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Veronica - thanks for the suggestion, and I do indeed have their email address in order to send pictures. However, since I'm only a shortish train ride away, I do go occasionally just to look at the glass collection anyway. (name dropping now I'm afraid - when I was there last found myself talking to Reino Leifkes no less). Think you are doing very well by the way.
Thanks Thomas - and you may well be correct - from memory am I correct in thinking that Elkingtons were the originators of EPNS - or similar. But do you have a particular reference image in mind?
thanks :)
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unfortunately not at the moment- but i will keep it in my mind :or: