Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: chopin-liszt on September 20, 2010, 02:31:52 PM
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:hi:
I know very little about cut stuff - not really my thing, and photographing it is a nightmare!
I bought this absolutley stunning decanter yesterday, very heavily and deeply cut/carved all over with fruits and leaves and berries and other more sculptural arches and stepped bits and more.... bits.
The neck is also cut with more fruits, on a smaller scale and so is the stopper.
There is water damage inside, I hope to get going with some cerium oxide etc. soon, and there are a couple of small surface chips/bruises, but it's not too bad, connsidering the quality of the piece.
Having a go at posting images directly! :X:
photobucket
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/rc1.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/rc6.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/rc7.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/4rc.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/3rc.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/2rc.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/5rc-1.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/1rc.jpg
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I looked rock-crystal cutting up in my decanter book - it said that it was achieved by the use of acid polishing in conjunction with the wheel cutting, so I'm all confused now - I had thought that rock-crystal cutting was simply the extra depth and complexity of the cutting - probably in a much thicker bit of glass than usual.
My brother is of the opinion that the fruity theme might indicate a Bohemian origin.
I'm clueless, but it is of serious quality, whatever it is. I just hope my lousy images give some sort of clue as to what it looks like to somevody who is more used to this sort of thing than me!
(had to modify messages to delete non-operational shrunken images, sorry)
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Ummm, I followed all the instructions for resizing in paint shop, but it seems to have failed - the pics don't blow up!
sorry. I shall resort to photobucket.
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Sue - have you tried downloading the free Irfanview re-imaging facility - if I can do it, then anyone can - I'm very computer illiterate. Gives massive control over size of your images etc.
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I have enough trouble dealing with the minute bits of programmy bits I do deal with, Paul. :cry:
I may do things the long, slow way around, but at least I can cope with the way I know how to do them. :P
I've gone back to the old, reliable photobucket, loads of images in one posting, no thousands of extra images saved in wee format in my computer either. :thup:
Here's the base.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/chopin-liszt/cutstuff/rc5.jpg
Had another go with resizing, trying this image again. Ta-da, Success!
(had made them 80 pixie-things not 800......)
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:rah: :rah: :rah:
Yay! Sue, I knew you could do it!
:hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp:
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:rah:
Ok, :kissy: but what can anybody tell me about my fabulous decanter now?
Is it "rock-crystal" cut or am I just getting over-enthusiastic?
It IS a pretty fabulous bit of cutting, incredibly ornate.
( >:D and so much for claretjugcollector saying 20 pics to get a decent one - I'm currently running at about 60:1 )
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The main body looks acid treated , rock crystal cutting is almost dazzling bright . :ooh
Having looked at the other pictures i have changed my mind i think it is rock crystal cutting , just needs repolishing , at a guess and looking at the stopper i would look into S&W .
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Thank-you very much, jp.
I've been studying the surface of the cuts with a magnifying glass - there is not as much evidence of the wheel marks as I usually see.
It was described as "pressed glass". I didn't believe that for one fraction of a second.
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Wow! That's really lovely, Sue! :D You are encroaching into my area of interest here >:D (But that's OK, 'cos I 'caught' Mdina from you! ;D )
I would not be 100% sure if it's what would be described as 'rock-crystal' either, as I thought like you that it had to be very thick and complex cutting - but I agree it looks as if it could well be! Would it be worth getting it 'Basil-ed'? I have a nice intaglio cut claret jug which I am meaning to get done some time, but I haven't yet got a round tuit ::) And Nic gave me the name of another person who repairs glass who he said was very reasonable too. If you want to inquire about the cost let me know and I'll pass their contact details on.
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Fabulous decanter! Coincidentally, I was trying to find out about rock chrystal the other day too! So I shall be interested to know what the experts have to add to this discussion!
Veronica
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Please remember Rock Crystal is not the same as Rock Crystal style cutting or you may find the wrong info . :pb:
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must admit I was going to make that comment earlier, and then thought it might seem a little supercilious coming from a thicky like me - there is also a mega difference in value between an item made from rock crystal, and one from rock crystal glass. In history there have been some unbelievable things made from real rock crystal...but I don't know if there has every been a sizeable decanter produced. :)
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There has. I've seen them in museums around Europe.
(My idea of a holiday is museums and art galleries by day, concerts in the evening. Used to do it a lot when I was well enough.)
It wasn't so long ago an ancient Islamic one was discovered - originally sold as glass.... it made newspaper headlines at the time.
Edited to add link
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,22854.0.html
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Hi Sue, I use a Picasa web album simple to use even for me :phew: get enough free to do a few hundred photos then it's something live $5 a year. Photos appear in a block just click on the 1st photo this enlarges it, then click the left or right arrows to scroll through the photos, on the right hand corner click on the magnifying glass icon this blows up the image then keep the left hand mouse button held down to move the image within the frame. Also makes listing photos on ebay a doddle.
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/107067405711297858658/MDINACUTICELOLLIPOPVASE#
Chris :sun:
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That's not the point here Chris. People delete and move stuff around in their online albums and then the links here are invalid. The idea of attaching pix is to retain as much information on the board as possible so it is an online reference.
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:angel: I don't delete or remove bits, so the images do stay.
I've been getting myself in a right tangle between trying to both photograph and post images of this thing. I'm going to have another go at putting images here, rather than links but I've got an awful lot of rubbishy pics to trawl through and looking at them makes me dizzy ... I'll get there in the end. 8)
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To be honest I have put 100s of photos on here, posting them is not a problem even for me :-[ the main problem for me and I am sure many others is re-sizing them to fit the limitations set, also posted 100s of photos on the specialist site whitefriars.com without a problem (no restriction on size ?) much simpler. I am forever looking back on here at old threads only for the photos to have disappeared, so frustrating, sorry the advice was not aimed at Sue specifically just thought hi Sue was appropriate as it was your post. Just pointing out generally to anyone struggling to post a permanent photo on here here a good alternative to Tinypic etc is Picasa which is simple to use well laid out great for storing your photos on and I think pretty permanent, I have Lost count of the times I have clicked a link on here and it's gone or clicked on a picture on here and it's too huge to see, too tiny too see or it doesn't enlarge when you click on it, so I think one or two like me find it a pain to post a photo? and much easier to post a link to a photo they already have anyway in their album which is well laid out easy to use and does great 'blown up' images. I know Christine some people do delete photos but I think most like me and I know Leni does too, use them in the same way as we used to do in the good old days take photos and pop them in an album and keep them forever. Probably not the point of the thread but you never know some other 'thicko' may just find it helpful anyway.
Chris :sun:
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:ooh:
I think we're leaving a nightmare thread for the mods to "clean up", so sincere apologies in advance!
I have been contemplating using picassa, it's one I find useful when others use it.
(but eeeek - it's something new to deal with, and my brain is fried.)
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Don't worry about the cleanup afterwards Sue, we'll manage it. :)
It's interesting to hear views on the picture storage here as opposed to say W/f.com - the limits here are set so that the server performance isn't compromised by manipulating them (that's a memory hungry process) and so that we have the space to store as many as possible.
We could make the size limits bigger but in doing so we risk the board falling over more often, as used to happen before we migrated to this set up (as many of the longer-standing members will, no doubt recall.)
We do keep it under review though, especially as the board is busier than it's ever been now.
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Hi Sue
Rock crystal cutting has a kind of soft look to it - not necessarily deep - it gives a smooth polished look rather than a cut look. The link below to wiki shows a real rock crystal ewer (scroll down the page to find it).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz
Link below to my rock crystal decanter.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/CC02V9vvR_HRu2qdnNIB8w?feat=directlink
Hazel
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In truth, resizing and attaching is simpler (once learnt) than uploading elsewhere IMHO. I use Photobucket (and don't delete or move or even file properly) but find if I don't resize my high res images it takes forever to upload them.
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Sorry, I forgot to say - your decanter is lovely and from the pictures looks like rock crystal to me. :chky:
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Thanks! :-*
My eyesight isn't what it was even a couple of years ago - and I'm not sure I could tell the difference between a soft cut and a hard one (they all look fairly harsh to me :-[ I like hot glass work rather than glass being used as a surface to "draw" on). Just been fighting with my light tent, trying that out.
meanwhile...
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It was very precarious (the tent), but I think it's produced better images.
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:phew:
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:thup:
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Thanks!
I should probably say that the fit of the stopper and the inside neck is absolutely perfect, put it in any way you like, there is not the tiniest hint of a wobble. Both surfaces are polished completely smooth and shiney, when I put my finger in the neck, there is a ridgey bit where the bottom of the stopper sits, where the glass widens into the rest of the neck.
The bulb of the stopper is hollow - it contains a perfect tear-drop shape bubble, but the plug is solid - you can make all that out in the last image.
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My gosh, Sue! :o I really, LOVE this decanter! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Well done on the pics, too - they're super! :hiclp: :kissy:
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My bunches of grapes don't have as many stick bits holding the bunch in place as your John Lloyd, Leni - but it does have some - they're not suspended in mid-air.
It is quite something, whatever sort of something it is! :spls:
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Sue your decanter is so much like one i have , it was identified for me by Simon Cottle when he was head of glass dept at Sothebys only the pattern is different mine is by John Orchard for S&W . He is a well respected author on glass .
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Wow, thanks again, jp. Those are certainly names I know. Do you happen to have any images of yours?
I have been staring and staring at it, (mine) I don't honestly know if it's looking "soft" because I'm going soft in the head or if it's real.
My gut instinct when I first laid eyes on it was that it looked like rock-crystal cut glass. Handling it did nothing to discourage that feeling. However, one doesn't see that much of it around and I'm not used to handling it, obviously, I have my doubts because of my lack of experience in this area.
The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced I was right - I really appreciate your opinion, as I know you do have experience with this sort of quality item.
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nice piece ! i think it is a intaglio cut glass and not rock crystal decanter - the design reminds of john orchard !! :ooh:
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Thanks very much - I hoped you would have a look!
I know it's not real rock crystal, but my query is whether or not it might be what is what is known as "rock crystal cut". I think it probably is, but this sort of thing is not my usual area - way out of my league (financially) and time period. :-\
but that's 2 (experienced) votes for a John Orchard possibility..... ;D
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here we have Intaglio cut glass vase
http://www.karaffensammler.at/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7503
and Rock crystal glass body of a decanter
http://www.karaffensammler.at/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6809
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by the way , sue !
take some grey paper as a background in your light tent - then cut a slice in the upper side of the tent ( 6 inches ) - then take a torch - and put the shine behind your decanter - just try - it works :-) :hi:
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I managed to get the light from the window behind the tent yesterday - today, there is no light outside.
Thanks very much for the tip - do I need special bulbs in the torch?
I can see there is a huge difference between your two glorious images, but I can't quite see where my decanter fits inbetween them.
The cutting is somehow not as flat as your intaglio cut, and nowhere near as ornate and soft looking as your rock crystal cut, and I can't see how either relate to the picture of Hazel's rock crystal cut decanter.
I can see me lugging it all the way to Birmingham in November!
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I believe it only looks intaglio because it needs polishing out , that gives the flat dull look to some of the cutting .
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appearance of carved rock crystal became especially popular during the final two decades of the nineteenth century in Great Britain. The style was also used, in a somewhat simplified form for the most part, in the United States from about 1890.
The British glass scholar Charles R. Hajdamach (1991, p. 234) unequivocally states that the rock-crystal style has "three main characteristics: deep cutting, copper-wheel engraving and final polishing". Somewhat confusingly the style is also sometimes referred to as "polished intaglio" (Charleston 1990, p. 199). Hajdamach continues as follows:
Firstly the glass has to be shaped by cutting, usually with pillars or roundels, from a thick blank to provide the basic shape. The pillared decoration by the glass cutter is extremely skilful, difficult and time-consuming as it is cut out of the solid with mathematical precision that belies its hand operation. Because the cutting is later covered by engraving this essential part of the process is often greatly underrated. The glass is next passed to the copper-wheel engraver who carves the finer details which complement the deeper cutting. For example the engraving may consist of leaves and flowers which grow out of the stems formed by the deep cutting. The third requisite is the polishing of the cutting and the engraving to restore the original polish to the glass.
The Stourbridge factory of Thomas Webb and Sons, at the Dennis Glass Works, was the first firm to use the term "rock crystal", for entries in a pattern book that are dated 6 Jul 1878. Two of the company's principle engravers were the Bohemian immigrants Frederick Engelbert Kny and William Fritsche. The latter is usually credited with introducing the style at Webb's, but there is no documentation. Hajdamach suggests that "its introduction may have been a joint venture by the two great Bohemian engravers" (Hajdamach 1991, p. 238). William Fritsche worked intermittently for two and a half years on the masterpiece of this genre, completing in 1886 "Fritsche's Ewer" a tour-de-force of "baroque power and rhythm" that can be seen at the Corning Museum of Glass (Charleston 1990, pp. 188-189).
Stevens and Williams Ltd., Webb's main competitor in the Stourbridge area, introduced rock crystal a year after Webb. Most of its rock crystal glass was engraved by John Orchard and Len Beach who often used designs created by another Bohemian immigrant engraver, Joseph Keller. After 1900 the additional firms of Webb Corbett and Stuart and Sons "made their own versions of rock crystal with a mixture of art nouveau and neo-classicism under the direction of two of Frederick Kny's sons, William and Ludwig" (Hajdamach 1991, p. 247)...............
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ad photos :
sun is our enemy - the best time to take pics is in the morning with no sun - - a cloudy not rainy day makes the best light - and the special effect comes from a rather normal LED torch ( a few pounds ) - in the end you will get some blue shiny images - not all people like the blue - if you want them more yellow - then you have to cooperate with sunshine - a good way is also to make them black and white :-)
http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00YeuTQJdWVUpa/LED-Torch-S231-.jpg
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Thank you so much for all the info from Hajdamach! (I've only got the recent 20th Century book)
It definitely has deep cutting. I can't swear to copper-wheel engraving, because I don't know how to identify it specifically. I don't know about the extra polishing/worn out extra polishing.
;D I've got a wee wind-up LED torch.
I thought I'd try taking pictures beside some normal cut crystal glasses to provide a "quality control" for the image.
I think this has to take a little trip down south to see Basil. There are some water marks which need removed, and a couple of small chips (I think from the same dunt) also a tiny bruise on one shoulder. The stopper has miniscule fleabites around it's base, and sadly, a tiny bit has been knocked off the very tip of it.
And a serious polishing all over?
I don't think it's anything which cannot be fixed, and I think it's going to be worth restoring.
Birmingham is a good way towards Basil, I'm sure I have friends who would take it the last leg of it's journey.
That way, folk can see it and feel it. So much better than even the best images!
Ok, off to fight with the tent again.
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Thank you Claret Jug Collector, I have learnt so much just by reading your posts on this. Your photography is fantastic and the pieces themselves - just unbelievable and heart stoppingly beautiful! Now I know why I wasn't particularly interested in British Glass - all the best stuff emigrated long ago! I have now realised my terrible mistake and am doing a rapid rethink, you have so made me want to learn more!
Veronica
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I can see me lugging it all the way to Birmingham in November!
Is that definite? :kissy:
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the pleasure is all mine to be in this forum with all those friendly glass Connaisseurs !
and i hope i will meet many people from here at the glass fair in november !
best wishes, Thomas :or:
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I've found a photo of a John Orchard decanter in Andy McConnell's 'Decanter' book. There's also a little copied section from a Stevens & Williams catalogue with some of his designs. From what I can see, the panels on your decanter are similar to those found on a drawing of a vase Orchard designed and the foot looks similar to a couple of vases shown. I can't see any depiction of grapes but the round fruits on yours look similar to some 'round fruits' (for want of a better term) shown in the drawings.
Sorry it's not much information really! Shall I photo the page and send to you email?
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hi max !
probably you mean page 383 - plate 537 -for my opinion its a little different to sue decanter ...
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mhm .. the more i look at the decanter the more i intend to say it could be a design by frederick carder - the poppy reminds me of my ewer by F.C.....
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:thud:
It's not nearly as ornate as that, Thomas!
And I don't think I've got a poppy on it either - I think it's a gooseberry.
There are round sorts of fruits, I don't know if they're peaches or cherries. The other fruits are either figs or pears, lemons or limes, and grapes. The grapes are definitely grapes.
I really, really hope I'm going to be with you in November, Christine. :-* We're organising Eire dates mid-October to suit, so it just depends if I'm well enough after that.
I'm being very, very good, resting and not overdoing things.
Max, if you have the time and the inclination, I'd love to have a peek at the pics. :kissy: I've just got the Hollingworth book and I can't find much like this in it.
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here are the images :-)
Mod: Sorry, you can't put those photos onto the GMB as they're not your copyright. It could cause all sorts of problems. :'(
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sue - it looks like a poppy to me .. here is yours :
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It was a long time ago but i remember Simon showing me a particular flower i believe it was a blossom on a fruit tree he said that is as good as a John Orchard signature , i will try to find mine but it takes days i have three glass rooms and a loft to go thru, a lot is packed in boxes , i had a visitor from the Glass Association this week come to pick up a piece he bought he only saw two rooms and was gobsmacked and wants to come back , nothing as grand as Thomas Claret jug collector i would love to see that . WOWEE . jp .
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i am totally over the moon :or:
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Claretjugcollector
probably you mean page 383 - plate 537 -for my opinion its a little different to sue decanter ...
That's why I didn't say it was the same.
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oki doki :chky:
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Just two comments everyone, I would say the fruits in question on Sue's decanter are depictions of pomegranates not poppies and - just thinking about his surname and word associations -did Orchard specialise in fruit?
P.S. Pomegranates are conventional symbol of fertility and therefore popular inclusion in design for wedding gifts etc.
Veronica
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I must say Veronica i was thinking along similar lines , i thought not flowers but large seed heads or fruit , Orchard was probably a botanist or a gardener , as well as a genius .
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Thanks Veronica...I was trying all sorts of fruit trying to get what they might be...I even tried Persimmons! ::)
I was playing with the idea that maybe the decanter had an Islamic look to it and wondered if the fruit might represent that...but then I don't know much about decanters to be honest... :huh:
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Hi, I have been up half the night worshipping Thomas' collection - this MUST be WORLD CLASS - the comments I made yesterday were only after a quick flick now I am truly dumbstruck!
How many years have you been collecting Thomas? What a fantastic and unique memorial to your father and what an incredible online resource for the interested! Why claret jugs and which piece is your personal favourite? I am fascinated so please tell us more of the story!
Noticed the poppies on this piece:-
http://www.karaffensammler.at/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6580
but the horizontal lines are on multiple faces/facets of the seedhead not just the one so I am still sticking with the pomegranate theory
Veronica
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thank you so much ! :-[
i started to collect at the age of 25 - i just bought a very plain rather normal jug ..
at home i started some research - and i found out ! it was just a very simple normal jug and i paid too much :-(
actually at this time i studied law in graz ( capital of styria ) and i got more and more interested in antiques - a few years later i started a small shop with some silver and some glass - and suddenly - people came and bought - i did it for more than 15 years - whenever i earned some money- i bought a claret jug - unfortunately there was no ebay at this time and no salesroom or any other interesting website - so all the jugs where still very simple- and then came THE DAY - an auction in the dorotheum - our austria auction house - a wonderful silver gilt claret jug - 1866 by John Figg london with finely engraved glass - aestimate : approximately 300 Bp - and i knew - that is a good one - i have to have it - i killed my piggy bank - actually i was 28 or 29 - and in the end i got it for 600 BP - because they couldn`t reach a bidder over the phone because of technical problems - lucky thomas - sp i bought a new piggy bank and started to save money for the next - at home i starred at the jug and said - ok - thats fine stuff - from this day on i mainly collect english jugs - they are the best - best glass - best silver - best proportions - best style !french are nice - german are strange . austrian are funny - russian are fake ;-) - so only english are left to collect - unfortunately there is no intersting jug at the moment up for auction .. !
and there is another claret jug collection ( www.claretjugs.com)- which is located in chicago - it consists of about 100 jugs - most of them are world class - some we do have in common - some month ago when i visited london i heard that the whole collection is for sale for a for my opinion - out of this world - price - i am not able to buy it - except i would accept the fact to have bread and water for the rest of my days .. - which i denie - so i think it is not funny to buy a collection it makes no sense - there is no fun - no bargain hunt - collecting things should hurt in a certain way- you realize that you live - all the emotions on buying a nice piece .( or a damaged one :-(
actually one by one is much more interesting to me :-)
i thaught about your question which is my favourite juggy ... i think it is always the next one which comes up - hopefully soon :-)
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That was really interesting Thomas ....... I started too old!
I agree with your comments about buying a collection (financial implications aside) 'the selection of the prey and the thrill of the chase' is what I enjoy too and the anticipation, expectation and enjoyment of the victories, their arrival and examination and of getting to know them. I won't go on about the disappointments but to some extent they not only teach us but also allow us to savour the victories more fully because victory/satsfaction/delight is never guaranteed.
Anyway, thanks for the link to the other collection - I shall study both collections and, hopefully, learn much from them!
Veronica
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Claret jugs are decanters with style and pizzazz, Thomas' collection, I agree, is absolutely world class ....
and Thomas' contribution here is also world class!
I hadn't thought of pomegranates.
I've got a better image of the fruits.
(I haven't got grey paper, holographic silver didn't do the trick, and my 3 bulb led torch brought out the water staining to the point I couldn't see the cuts :-[ )
I've put in a couple of images with an Edinburgh crystal wineglass (Iona) and a Tudor one with thistles.
(but I'm afraid I've ended up with a bit of a lousy background)
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your wonderful cut glass fruitsalad :hiclp: images are much better now - congratulations !!
i think it took me a year to make pics like yours are now :-)
some more trying and they are really top images !!!
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:-[
Shucks!
I've just been thinking that if the fruits are pears, peaches, goosberries and lemons/limes and grapes, these are fruits associated with the flavours of white wine.
I wonder if there might be a "twin" to this piece, with fruit flavours associated with red wine?
(now I can't remember which images I've posted.....)
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I wrote this earlier today but it doesn't seem to have appeared so I probably forgot to press 'post'!
The decanter looks wonderful now and your new photos are so much better. Sorry if I got a little side tracked with this discussion! Looked at images for pomegranates and poppies, pomegranates seem to always have six points to crown but poppies seem more variable 8 - 10 or so, therefore think they must be poppies after all and apologies again for false trail. Both symbolise fertility and prosperity. They are definitely depictions of pears not figs, on that I am certain as the leaves are very different.
Veronica
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Sue — Following your request I am replying to this topic rather reluctantly as I have nothing to add. My knowledge of rock crystal is little more than studying Wolfenden and Hajdamach I & II, the standard reference works, and having two or three beautiful examples — but only wineglasses — through my hands. I have no experience of decanters and other larger pieces in rock crystal.
Sorry about that.
Bernard C. 8)
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Thank you so much Bernard, I thought it might be much more your area than mine as I'm really a fish out of water regarding this sort of period. I'd rather know you don't know, than think you hadn't seen it or were ignoring me!
(innate paranoia :-[ )
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I was wondering if some kind mods, when time is available, would try to clean this thread up a bit, pretty, please?
The photobucket links can be removed, (resized images are posted directly to the board later) - somebody has complained to me that just going to those links resulted in so much rubbish and advertising appearing that he had to clean his whole pc up afterwards.
And there is a load of wibble about posting images that is interfering with trying to glean what scant info. actually is here.
Only when it 's convenient! and thank you very much, in advance. :)