Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: yesvil on September 26, 2010, 06:25:41 PM
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I think this is the nicest and most detailed of this type of glass I have seen - obviously taking into account my newness to this hobby.
The non patterned inside is highly textured and the the whole thing is awash with detail. I love it! Now, investigations via my meagre library have lead me to early American -- I expect to be hideously wrong.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skillkraft/5026305677/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skillkraft/5026153142/
~Adam
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It might be; it might be French or German. Look through the plates, bow;s and centrepieces on here http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/index2.html
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Hi Adam,
beautifull, but don't waste your time in my pavillon, I've not got a similar pattern :mrgreen:
French catalogues on www.glas-musterbuch.de might be more helpful :-\
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Thanks Lustrousstone & Pamela for your pointers. Just to add it's never waste your time in your pavillon Pamela, such an interesting site!
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Thank you Adam :-*
I tend to EAPG meanwhile too, hopefully Ohio Ken will drop in and have a look ;D
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Some of these early plates / bowls are British. Molineaux Webb did a good number of them from the 1830s onwards. Percival Vickers did a small number of them. I don't know about other British manufacturers but would feel confident that glass works in Birmingham also produced items of this general type. Having said all that, it does not match any British pattern that I am aware of. My first guess would be EAPG as well.
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Thought I would add another picture of this in side profile as it's shape is not so obvious in the ones I have posted. Also to add that below the rim there is another rebated edge that you can just make out in this image.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skillkraft/5030820740/
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I have a piece which looks very like this from the side, though the pattern is different. A thick edge indicates an early date I believe, and I know mine is circa 1840 or earlier. I would guess yours is quite likely pre 1850. I have had a look through a couple of my books on Sandwich glass - American lacy plates - and I do not see your design there. Are there any signs of letters hidden in the lacy dots? Some of these are marked with a "W" or "D" or "WR"
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I should give you an example of what these letters look like, if you have one. They are small and not easy to spot. You should be able to see a "W" in the middle of this image.
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Thanks neilh. I have found a mark! it's small and took some finding and is a bit vague but I think it's WR. :hiclp:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skillkraft/5031228098/
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Brilliant! The meaning of these marks has been debated over the years but on the latest, and I believe correct explanation, you have a mould made by the Birmingham mould maker William Reading. So your piece was probably designed in the 1830s or 1840s, one of the earliest pressed glass design patterns in the UK. The actual pressing could have been some time after that but looking at the thickness of the piece I still say 1850 or earlier is quite likely.
Some of these plates had the moulds designed in Brum but there is no guarantee they were actually pressed by a Birmingham factory. Some moulds were exported abroad to the near continent. Some were used by Molineaux Webb of Manchester. The northeast is another possibility. Until the design appears in a glass catalogue we can't be sure who produced it.
The odds are slightly in favour of a West Midlands glass works.
I should mention that Siegmar Geiselberger of Pressed Glass Correspondence magazine did a lot of research in this area and I am to a degree parroting back some of his work here!
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neilh thank you so much that's all really interesting. Not American then, unless the moulds made it that far? I would love to know more about this period and these people, do you have any good web links that may help me?
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Here is a link to Siegmar's pdf from edition PK 2008-3 of his magazine. It is in German but you can always copy and paste the text out into the Google German to English translator and get most of the meaning.
http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2008-3w-vogt-teller-wr-victoria.pdf
I've been intending adding a couple of topics to the British & Irish board on these plates - might get round to it tonight if I'm feeling keen!
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Ok I have added details on a Molineaux Webb Queen Victoria plate on the British & Irish board here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,36446.0.html
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One more thread for you on this topic - highlighting the prize piece in my collection. A very early plate made circa 1840, possibly one of the earliest pressed items in the UK which can be attributed to a glass works. See what you think!
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,36448.0.html
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Thanks neilh I will have a good(Gut) read-up when I get the chance.
Prior to posting the plate on here I sent a email to the Early American Pattern Glass Society. They have very kindly written back and I'm sure they wont mind if I post their response here:
"Hello Adam,
Your glass "bowl" appears to be a deep plate from the Lacy glass era that immediately preceded the Early American Pattern Glass era.
Barlow and Kaiser show an example of this pattern in A Guide to Sandwich Glass Pressed Tableware in their photo #1088.
They call the pattern "Pressed Shell" - apparently named for the twelve design elements in the border that vaguely resemble scallop shells.
They date the plate 1835-1850 and write "There are several variants of Shell documented as Sandwich (Boston and Sandwich Glass Co., Sandwich, MA.), but it is possible that other eastern flint glass factories also made them. The plates came in at least seven sizes.
I trust this is of assistance."
So this implys that the Moulds were used in America
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Hi there,
What you have to bear in mind here is that Ruth Webb Lee compiled books on Sandwich glass over 50 years ago and lumped a lot of British and European plates as American. Since then, catalogues have come to light showing this to be mistaken, and the attribution of some pieces is therefore incorrect.
What is unclear to me is whether books (?) like Barlow and Kaiser are just repeating the work of Ruth Webb Lee and copying thr mistakes, or whether catalogues exist from Boston & Sandwich and these designs are in there.
As these designs were not registered it is quite possible that some moulds might have been exported in both directions, but ultimately the proof is in the surviving catalogues...
I have been trying to contact an EAPG person and would like to follow up your email with them. Could you possibly email me through my website with the email address of your contact - my email link is on this page
http://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/contact---updates
.. and I'll see if I can get any further with this!
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Will do :thup:
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Hello
This really isn't classified as EAPG - it is Lacy period pressed glass. I would suggest that you contact Corning Museum of Glass.
When I get home tonight, I'll have a look at the Barlow and Kaiser reference because they are excellent researchers and are not likely just following Lee.
Sid
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Hello
I am going to dive into waters that I am not real comfortable with i.e. pre EAPG era tableware. Heck, I am not even comfortable with flint EAPG tablewares. On second thought, I am just going to dip my toe in.
Barlow and Kaiser indeed show what appears to be the plate in question in Glass in Sandwich Vol 1 as figure 1088. They show two other plates (1089 and 1366) in a similar but distinctly different pattern, one of which is referenced to the Lee-Rose book "American Glass Cup Plates". The main design difference from your example is that the central area inside the four large medallions is not stippled and the decorative bit in the direct centre is different in the latter two plates. Barlow and Kaiser do not indicate that shards were found at the site for figure 1088 and do not list this as a pattern that can be documented (catalog, price lists, shards, etc.) as being made at the factory. Lee-Rose, in turn, show several plates with a shell border, none of which match the plate of interest but several of which are clearly related to the latter two plates in Barlow and Kaiser. Spillman shows yet another variant as Figure 301 in "American and European Pressed Glass in the Corning Museum of Glass".
It looks like several variations of the same design were being made at that early date. Typically this means, at least in later years, that there is a high probability that several factories were involved.
Sid
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Very interesting Sid.
The fact that yesvil's plate has a "WR" on it should guarantee the plate was made in Britain / Europe, unless some moulds made it to the USA. This is presuming Siegmar Geiselberger & previous curators at the V&A are correct in their researches.
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Thank you Sid - I feel a bit guilty relying on other peoples library's, but If I got all the books I wanted or needed there would be no money left for food let alone new glass! so thank you all.
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Finally contacted the EAPG society about my own lacy plates and they have given this very full and useful reply:
http://www.eapgs.org/pid_user_view_reply.php?rid=1081&ts=1287846758
Key point for me is that Ruth Webb Lee's attributions are indeed thought to be a little shaky by modern standards of proof.
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I have picked up one of these bowls this week, may even be the one from this thread. I believe these are not marked "WR" - it's a trick of the light around the area of the diamond, at a certain angle it can look a bit like a WR stamp.
As others have said on this thread, it seems firmly identified as Boston and Sandwich. One is shown in Spillman's book from the Corning Museum of Glass (item 301) and several variants are shown by Ruth Webb Lee, where the design is called "plentiful".
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Some more updated info on the shell lacy plates/bowls. From the hardbound catalog of the William J. Elsholz collection dispersed through Bournes Auctions in 1988 three examples are pictured. Two appear to be 6 in. plates and one cup pate. All have small differences in some way, either the center medallion differs, the star in the two diamonded base medallions may be omitted and the scalloped rim may or may not be stippled. They do not give a possible origin, except to say about the cup plate " origin uncertain".
Of the three versions pictured in Kenneth M. Wilson's book AMERICAN GLASS 1760-1930 Toledo Museum of Art 1994 all are different in some small way. The 6 in. bowl is missing the center medallion altogether. This is the version most often seen conjoined to a pressed base to form a compote. None of these examples, 6 in. bowl, cup plate and 6 in. plate have the star in two of the base medallions. Statements to origin only go as far as to say "probably Sandwich" for the bowl, 'probably New England" for the cup plate and "possibly Sandwich" for the plate.
A closeup of the center medallion would be most helpful. Your window picture [first one] very nice but too small to accurately make out the very center motif. Seems to be a handful of differing center motifs with these lacy shell plate/bowls.
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See what you can make of mine, diameter 7 inches, density 3.21g/cc (pre 1850 I would therefore say)
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Neilh's version is the same as lot #1084 in the Elsholz collection The only other info given is size [7 1/8 in.], references given are {like Lee 112-4} and Exhibited Corning Museum of Glass, 1954 No. 129. The Corning reference in the list for the auction refers to Rose, James H. THE STORY of AMERICAN PRESSED GLASS of the LACY PERIOD 1825-1850. The Corning Museum of Glass, Corning New York. 1954. I am pretty sure a soft copy of this exhibition was published at the time.
The "W" "WR" "D" is addressed by Spillman in her book AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN PRESSED GLASS in the chapter on Pressed Glass outside the United States. She thinks they date from the 1830's.A rough date of 1840 would not be out of line I think.
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I'm intending to cover "W" "WR" and "D" plates when I do my book on Manchester glass (which will follow one on Percival Vickers I'm putting together at the moment). I have some new info on these early plates and some nice examples, including a previously undiscovered "W"
The plate we're showing on this thread isn't part of that group of course, though of a similar date. I believe all the marked plates were made by Birmingham moulders for various UK factories from about 1835 to early 1840s
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A most challenging and worthy endeavor, I wish you every success. I don't see much about this period in English pressed glass, other than the Victoria and related cup plates. Much scholarship on this period over here. I find the cap ring molds used in this period interesting and the fact that they were pressed upside down with the pattern on the piston somewhat ingenius.
I have a few plates pre cap ring c.late 1820s early 1830s as examples. Very interested in what was happening in pressed glass in England 1820-1840.
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Not entirely sure if this V&A link is helpful but adding it just in case:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2649/plate-reading-william/
I find it quite annoying that it says Maker William Reading but then when you read down the info there are 'probably's and 'possibly's.
m