Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ron on January 02, 2006, 05:29:20 PM
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My first post here several months ago (as a guest) was asking about a "PK" marked glass vase I had. I have since acquired a few more pieces with the same mark and am still searching for the maker. This current auction makes the claim the mark is "DK" for Durand & Kimball circa 1918.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7378061535&sspagename=ADME:L:RTQ:US:1
In my opinion, this piece doesn't resemble anything made by either company or their brief association with each other. I believe Durand was signed simply "Durand" and Kimball used the letter "K". I did find reference to a cursive "DK" but not the same as the intertwined letters in the auction piece.
It has the distinctive dark brown edge at the top and hand painted enamel decorations shared with the pieces I own.
(http://webpages.charter.net/ronsplace/pkvases.jpg)
One of the people I corresponded with felt the "PK" mark was from Karl Pohl, a Bohemian decorator listed in Ivo's book, but I haven't been able to confirm that.
Would anyone care to share an opinion on where this mystery mark is from?
(http://webpages.charter.net/ronsplace/pkmark.jpg)(http://webpages.charter.net/ronsplace/pkmark2.jpg)
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Durand & Kimble seems extremely unlikely as their mark was a sans-serif K in a circle with the words Kimble glass under the K.
Durand only ever used their D with a long tail at the bottom and no serifs.
So stylistically this is unlikely. Several Bohemian makers, engravers and decorators did combine leters in this way.
Have you asked the auctioner for their provenance? What they say appears to be only opinion without any corroborative evidence.
Have to wait for Ivo's return re Pohl. I suggest you bump it up, by adding a message, in early February.
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JMHO - But based on the color of the vase in the auction, I vote either French or Bohemian. I have had 2 pieces of this light brown "cafe au lait" (for lack of a better term) glass with hand enamelled decoration. They both seemed to be French in style (but I could also believe Bohemian).
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I've seen dozens of these vases with the "DK" or "PK" mark...anyone that knows anything abound Durand or Kimble art glass would never attribute these vases to them...
These are obviously turn of the century Bohemian vases and the initials are those of the decorator's shop..
So how did the connection between the "DK" initials and Durand & Kimble start? In two places, on May 8, 2004 a 6 inch vase (Item #51) signed "DK" and incorrectly attributed to Durand & Kimble sold for $780 at James Julia auctions (www.juliaauctions.com) in the U.S.
I've also seen the same vase signed "DK" misattributed in a Miller's Antique Guide as being produced by Durand & Kimble.
Seller's on EBAY that know nothing about Durand and Kimble art glass use this misinformation as a reference for their items..
"Knowledgeable" art glass collectors would never purchase these vases thinking they were Durand or Kimble...
Blair
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http://www.bowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/standardsearch.php3?Collection=Glass
A search for Karl Pfohl using the above link should take people to a fairly typical image of the glass of Karel Pfohl, a set of 24 glasses for the Bowes family (as in Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother).
A couple of difficulties with this mark.
Pohl and Pfohl may be one and the same, and if so, the family generally were principally noted for their engraving, much of which appears to have been done whilst moving throughout Europe(see Bernard's comments in the thread on the Whistler book).
Beyond that I can't help, as I have no idea whether any Pohl/Pfohl family members were enamel painter/decorators.
One of the Pfohls was working for Moser in the 1930's, a seriously durable family of engravers.
regards,
Marcus
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meanwhile I investigated Hoffmann Glasmarken Lexikon - no success
the name POHL is listed as well as several PFOHL's - all were carvers/engravers
the pity with Hoffmann is that no decorating, painting artists are named
:twisted:
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Hi,
While looking for another Durand item; I ran across this ebay auction for a vase that has been decorated in a similar fashion, marked the very same way and attributed to Durand & Kimble.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-DURAND-KIMBALL-Custard-Art-Glass-Vase-HP-Enamels_W0QQitemZ7380608402
I can't say if the seller is correct, but maybe you could use the "Ask Seller a Question" feature to ask them what they are basing their information on. This item was listed before and received no bids, so either it is not what the seller says or their opening bid price is to high for ebay shoppers.
Mike
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Mike
The item on eBay is the same item that Ron posted about to open this thread.
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I emailed the seller last week and told them they might be interested in this discussion (with a link).
Mike, like Connie said they lowered the opening bid by $300 and relisted it as a five day auction. That's interesting - the original listing was for seven days, then extended to ten.
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Fascinating discussion. Lets examine a piece more closely shall we?
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/Muscadale/TPKorDKvase.jpg)
This is the one I have. Here is the mark
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/Muscadale/TMark.jpg)
This vase stands apprx. 12 inches high. The top rim has been ground and polished. The base as you can see has no pontil. The edge of the base however has been ground, I suppose to make it sit better. The decoration on this piece is flat and not of the best quality. The only gold showing are remnants of a band at the top and one at the bottom. I had read a long time ago and of course can't remember where or even find it to this day, that the intials are for PK a decorator at Boston&Sandwich glass. IMHO a piece surrounded by what today are called Urban legends. Terry
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Just to throw another letter into the mix - one of the people I corresponded with mentioned the backward letter F.
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Some of this will be my opinion and is based on the piece that I have in hand and can compare with others. Some is based on the books I have ready at hand.
First we can totally dispell any connection with Durand Kimble. I have the book Durand The Man and His Glass by Edward Meschi. When one views the pictures of Durand glass, one is immediately aware of glass artistry at its best. The PK pieces or DK if you prefer don't even come close.
The word custard glass has been used and there again, in no way do these pieces stand up to the test of custard. Custard glass comes in various shades of yellow, usually very soft and will glow under a blacklight. My piece has no reaction to a blacklight.
Fireglo is the next term banded about. Fireglo has been attributed to the Boston and Sandwich glass company which closed in 1888. Since Durand did not start till 1897 we can safely assume no connection there.
Here is a piece of fireglo to show what it looked like. http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1585
Rather nondescript and I would say somewhat grey in color. However backlit it takes on a whole new persona.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1584
My PK piece does not exhibit any sort of fire whatsoever. So in conclusion we can say definately what it is not. It is not Durand or Kimble, it is not custard, it is not fireglo. By eliminating what it is not, maybe we can move forward to what it is. Terry
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The eBay auction has been revised as a ten day auction with a lower opening bid and no mention of Durand Kimble, instead saying it's probably Bohemian. The Ruby Lane listing was similarily revised.
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Hurrah :D
I've got one now, I was feeling a bit left out but I found this yesterday, and to be honest I do quite like it, the black really sets the other colours off.
http://tinypic.com/k4aww5.jpg
And the mark on the base
http://tinypic.com/k4ayh2.jpg
Now all I would like to know is, did Mr. PK do the only painting work on these objects and if he did he must have worn his arms out, or were all the decorators called the same name, spooky or what :roll:
Barbara
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Not only that but the middle tail is not a continuation of the loop. This gives a little bit more credibility to the reversed F adding FDK to the possibilities. It is not uncommon for those of us with an F initial to reverse it, my signature is a reverse F in a heart.
Which upsets all officials, banks etc :D
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I finally found an answer.
The following is a partial quote from the Readers Response section in Glass Collector's Digest, April/May 2001 (their last and final issue):
The PK stands for Phlip Kiluk of New Bedford MA. He was the first decorator at the Sagamore Factory of Pairpoint Glass started by Robert Bryden in 1970. Later he changed his signature to P. Kiluk........My reference for this information comes from "Pairpoint Glass" by Leonard E. Padgett which is out of print.
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Ron -
Is that date (1970) in the quote correct? If so, then all these vases are contemporary.
As I stated in the thread about the sandwich glass boat, Pairpoint makes reproduction glass for the Sandwich Glass museum and others but it is usually marked with a P in a diamond.
I am :? :lol:
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Connie - yes, that's when they began operating their current factory and museum in Sagamore. I'm looking for the Padgett book to confirm this info.
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Glass myths can explode, but I am with the AGG in doubting an attribution to Pairpoint for these dozens of examples that have come to light - in Europe no less - with a PK signature. The intricacy of decoration is such that it would not be economically feasible to apply such decorations by hand in the 1970s or later as the resulting price would make it unsellable.
And as for the verified Kiluk items that I have seen, these were all much simpeler - in line with the thought that refinery is nice but should not take more than half an hour.
So I'm not convinced. Can anyone with the Padgett book look it up?
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My excitement at the word soon turned to dismay when I learned that the "PK" was attributed to a Pairpoint decorator in the 1970's.
There is absolutely no way Pairpoint made these vases in the 70's or any other decade.
These vases are obviously turn of the century Bohemian. The "style" of the initials are very similar to many other Bohemian decorators that signed their work.
The mystery continues..... :?
/Blair
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I bought the Padgett book (finally) and can confirm the PK mark is neither Philup Kiluk nor Pairpoint.
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This 4 inch vase has an unusual (to me) mark on the base. If anyone has any information on this mark, I'd sure love to hear from you. It looks like a combination of T P L K, with what looks like a deliberate flourish to the left of the P and the lower leg of the K is made like a number 2. I know it looks like it's penciled on, but it is permanent. It's been suggested that the PK part of it is confused with a Durand mark?
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/normal_g123_009%7E0.jpg
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/normal_g123_010%7E0.jpg
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Frank - Geez, I love a good mystery! Thanks so much for the link to the discussion on this mark. Great reading!
I noticed on each of the marks I looked at (some links were no longer working, darn it), were slightly different. The PK remains basically the same, but there are differences in each. Particularly the black vase with the straight line beginning at the end of the P and ended at the lower leg of the K. The backwards F is clear to see too. Whereas on mine, it look much less like an F and more like a T. (Reminds me of the different Hummel bee marks that point to the period they were made.) There's clues to the maker in the slight differences of the mark, I'll bet.
Maybe I should throw my vase in that other post so others can find my mark too?
Relieved my instincts weren't wrong - it's not a Pairpoint reproduction- whew!
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The subtle differences in the marks are moe likely down to different painters, not manufacturers
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Oh, certainly. I agree. I didn't mean it to sound like I suspected different makers :-[
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Here's part of a reply I got from a customer several months ago:
The "PK" items are actually "FPK", with the "F" reversed at the beginning.
They are Bohemian, and the most common ones like those I got from you are the
largest group by far. There are also other items that go up to (quality-wise)
what people would put the generic "Moser" on. The glass people, like many
industries, are very intertangled by everything from "outsourcing" when they needed
more items than they could produce, to of course all sorts of intermarriage.
It seems that perhaps Mulhause or Harrach had the most to do with the FPK
items, but I am not sure yet. There is a small company that marked some of its
items Tischer, and some of their work resembles the more common FPK things.
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Just had a quick look on glass gallery for first time,the vase with a conjoined P K on the base i have several with same signature someone a few years back told me it was Palme Konig.Mine are all opaline and some painted or enamelled and mostly in pairs.If this is in wrong place please shift it for me. Thanks.
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Here's another two, wow! :-*
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220207899926
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Another vote for Bohemia.
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Very nice those ones. I saw and handled a coffee coloured PK and would go for Bohemia on the basis of the other pieces I've got
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Let's throw a pretty good attempt at peachblow (or pink cased, by the definition that, no matter what it looks like, if they didn't originally call it peachblow it isn't peachblow found in the Billings reference book...) into this conversation:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/rlshaw56/Glass%20Photos/pinkvase.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/rlshaw56/Glass%20Photos/pinkvaseback.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/rlshaw56/Glass%20Photos/pinkvasemark.jpg
A small handwritten note, evidently by someone who acquired this vase from the original owners, or someone who knew them, was inside the vase when I gave it a wash after buying it:
"belonged to Andrew and Eva Gosse bought before 1889 probably 1850s"
Now I know the "probably 1850s" is without a doubt someone's flight of fancy. 1889 however meshes nicely with other glass of that era.
Gosse is an unusual enough name that a search of the given names and surname comes up with some information from a geneology page http://www.migrations.org/horstein/b242.html#P4243 (http://www.migrations.org/horstein/b242.html#P4243), nothing conclusive but interesting nonetheless (and by the way, the only Andrew and Eva Gosse that come up on a Google search):
"Eva WILZ was born on 23 Mar 1823 in Michelbach, Unterfranken, Bavaria. She immigrated on 4 Sep 1837 to Baltimore, MD. Came to America on board the Bark Favorite which sailed from Bremen to Baltimore arriving on 4 Sep 1837. She died in 1913 in Princeton, Bureau Co., IL. see http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jbowenil&id=I00767 Parents: Peter WILZ and Eva Gertrude HUTH.
Spouse: Andrew GOSSE. Andrew GOSSE and Eva WILZ were married."
9" tall. Feel free to steal my pictures and rotate the base picture to see if you can make heads or tails of what is penciled on the edge. I'd really like to know who made my vase and who PK is.
Rich
Mod: First three links converted to simple clickable ones.
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I think PK was a company decorating blanks from different manufacturers and to differing standards (probably depending on market). The piece I have handled was of fair quality decoration on a standard coffee coloured glass with a standard blow-moulded base and a ground rim. Craig's has similar construction but better decor. Rich's has much better decor and a hollow foot and ground foot rim - a completely different manufacturing technique.
Barbara, your pix have been eaten, can you attach them please
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I agree Christine that the most logical explaination is a decorating company. Of the half dozen examples I've had & sold in the US (and I've examined many more I have not purchased), they were of different quality & manufacturing depending on piece. The Peachblow type (notice I said type) that Rich shows are usually a cut above in quality for some odd reason. Ken
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For interest, another decorated vase marked PK on the base.
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I have asked this before could it not be Palme Konig ? :hb1: :hb2: you know how stubborn i am .jp
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Sorry this road was closed long time ago.
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Sorry i missed of must that where can i see the info please . :-[ :pb:
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I believe I've had seven of these PK pieces, all different blanks over the years & I'm convinced it was a european decorating outfit along the lines of Smith Brothers in the US that used Mt. Washington blanks. Ken
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Well look what I found in my garage...pretty little thing, only 3.5" in height.
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Two of the above examples would tend to confirm FPK rather than just PK. The middle left line clearly NOT being a continuation of the P loop.
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Having two hyacinth vases with this now famous signature, I've always followed this topic with interest.
Yesterday I picked up a book called An Illustrated Dictionary of Glass by Harold Newman. Coming to the letter P, I found the following:
" PF (or PP) glassware.
Opaque white glassware enamelled by an unidentified hand (one piece is initialled 'PF' or 'PP'), featuring floral bouquets, and also peacocks and CHINOISERIES on a 'floating raft'. It has been said that the decorator was possibly from Newcastle, and that his work has been erroneously attributed to Michael Edkins.
See R.J. Charleston, 'A painter of Opaque-white glass,' Glass notes, Arthur Churchill, Ltd, 13 (1953) p.13."
With my two vases the PF makes sense, remains the letter K. PP I have never seen.
Both my vases are white opaque with very skillfully painted bouquets, that makes sense too.
I bought my vases in England, for what it's worth.
I have no idea about the time frame of any of this, just thought it might give a new outlook on the whole mystery.
Patricia
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I am curious if this mark is still unidentified. There is an ebay seller making claims it is Poschinger.
"I have two of these vases that are signed, KFP which is from KRYSTALLGLASFABRIK FREIHERR VON POSCHINGER. Estimated date is from the end of the Victorian era through the early Art Deco years."
None of these have ever looked like Poschinger to me.
The post can be seen here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Signed-Poschinger-Antique-Victorian-Bohemian-Hand-Painted-Floral-Art-Glass-Vase-/131080933553?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item1e850850b1
Just wondering if I missed something.....
Craig
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Craig this Poschinger deal has been floating around for about two years now, but to the best of my knowledge no solid credible documentation has surfaced...its just the most recent guess at interpretation of the PK, FPK, ad nauseam marking. Same scenerio with the Webb morrocan enameling interpretation. Someone can correct me if I am mistaken.
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I followed this for years as well - the P reminds me of how some other Czech marks were enamelled (as well as the way the vases are made) so personally I've always thought Czech and possibly late 1900's for these pieces but I've never found any evidence to support the PK mark being anyone in particular.
And yes, the 'Webb Moroccan' same thing - although I think that particular 'id' came from piece written in an American antiques journal originally - I think I posted something I found on that one somewhere on the board?
For those vases ('Webb Moroccan') Truitt's have suggested Southern Bohemia as a possibility iirc (just in case anyone happens upon this thread).
m
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The brown highlighting is typical Bohemian as is the shape though the design is somewhat more modern (i.e. Art Deco) than is generally the case
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Thanks all..... so nothing I missed......
Craig
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lovely-Pair-Victorian-Satin-Or-Opaline-Glass-Floral-Hand-Painted-Vases-Signed-PK-/291051889671?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item43c40b6407
another pair for sale here.
These have a pretty decoration in terms of the colours of the flowers (not so browny tauny) with the large flowers in bright pink and yellow and one of the leaves in a blue - all the outlines in a pinky purple gloss enamel.
Also signed with the odd P that looks as though it is a backward F against a P and then the K lower down the stem of the P/F.
Might they be French? just wondering :-[
m
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Speculation about the authorship of these decorated pieces has been going on for more than 30 years. Everything has been suggested, nothing has ever been substantiated. I stopped believing that an attribution is possible long time ago.
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'Speculation about the authorship of these decorated pieces has been going on for more than 30 years. Everything has been suggested, nothing has ever been substantiated. I stopped believing that an attribution is possible long time ago.'
To be honest, I don't like them enough to care :-[
m
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I have been dealing in & collecting Art Glass for over 30 years now. We have had several pieces of Art Glass with the PK mark (We have 2 pieces currently). After extensive research AND after having a vase signed PK as well as having the company mark, we have finally established the maker as being the Czechoslovakia company of HARRACH! It was a looooooooooong and exhaustive search!!!
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Welcome to the glass message board.
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Hi and welcome to the board.
That's very exciting information. Do you mean the vase had the PK mark and the Harrach propellor mark? or was signed Harrach?
Thanks
m
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Owing 3 pieces with the mysterious PK signature I am quite happy to accept they were made by Harrach but do we know as well what the letters P K stand for?
Patricia
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I am VERY sceptical. I guess I've been around too long.
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Ivo move over...you have company. I am also very skeptical regarding this Harrach association as there are multiple individuals that specialize in Harrach who have traveled throughout this area visiting museums/collections, etc. for years & if it were Harrach any association with PK/FPK (whatever) certainly should have surfaced prior to this. I will wait for others who are associated with Harrach to join the bandwagon & demonstrate with solid documentation the why & when & who that it will take for this to be considered "gospel" rather than just a declaration of an opinion. I've been through far too many old wives tales over the decades for a blind faith approach. But thats just me.
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I have been dealing in & collecting Art Glass for over 30 years now. We have had several pieces of Art Glass with the PK mark (We have 2 pieces currently). After extensive research AND after having a vase signed PK as well as having the company mark, we have finally established the maker as being the Czechoslovakia company of HARRACH! It was a looooooooooong and exhaustive search!!!
Hello and welcome to the board, ru12bnvs. Could you please add photos showing the piece which you mention with the PK mark and the company mark? It would also be useful to know which evidence finally established this result for you... it's been such a long and frustrating puzzle for this board that new leads are welcome and if we can confirm your findings that would be worthwhile.
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I have been dealing in & collecting Art Glass for over 30 years now. We have had several pieces of Art Glass with the PK mark (We have 2 pieces currently). After extensive research AND after having a vase signed PK as well as having the company mark, we have finally established the maker as being the Czechoslovakia company of HARRACH! It was a looooooooooong and exhaustive search!!!
I am assuming ? since there was no additional information from ru12bnvs that there is no evidence of the PK mark being authenticated as Harrach or anyone else. Am I correct in my assumption?
Thanks.
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I would agree, needs proof shared.
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Thanks, Frank.
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I would be thoroughly shocked if there was anything linking this to Harrach. I am pretty confident that if the link existed, Brian Severn, who photographed the Harrach archives for a couple of summers, would have chimed in at some point..... either here, or any other number of forums where I know he participates, and the subject has been broached over and over.
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A new contender Franz Pallme König with a labelled example here http://www.bohemianglass.org/katalog/vaza-malovane-sklo-4835/detail/
Site belongs to Ale Král
My doubts are around dates.... so have asked him the following.
That does not really help, it obviously refers to Franz Josef Pallme König but he was mainly a glass cutter, although referred to as a glasspainter too. He left the firm to go freelance in around 1880 and reappears at Thomas Webb in the UK c1882 with a slight name change to Franz Joseph Palme, if it is the same man he would be 70 then. Signinq F I P
So I am still not seeing how you are attributing the FPK signature as Franz Pallme-König
From Hartmann
1st Franz Josef Pallme König born 1702
2nd Franz Josef Pallme König born 1812 (died 1867 according to Hartmann)
But this jars with firm being listed as Franz Pallme-König at Paris exhibitions to 1867
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Frank, there is some discussion on this here:
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/271866-mystery-mark-pk--franz-pallme-koenig
At the end of the comments Welzebub makes a point
'For what it is worth, this mark has also been discussed at great length on the GMB for a very long time also. There is, and always has been on ongoing debate regarding the presence of the "F". Since it faces backwards, it is believed by many that the "F" people see are simply ornate details on the backwards extensions of the "P".'
For the sake of discussion, if we take the signature on the piece shown on the link above ( the vase with the signature on, not the one with the label) looking at the embellishments of the extra lines on the K I'm inclined to think that the 'extra' lines on the 'P' are just that, i.e. extra lines. They match those embellishments on the K and do not denote another letter e.g. an F in my opinion. If this is the case then the signature would just read PK - not FPK?
m
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There was another discussion regarding this same topic, and the debate continues regarding this mark. The point I also made, and will continue to make, is that the mark is believed by some to read FPK, and by others it is believed to be PK.
I am of the opinion that proving whose mark it is will remain an enigma until either an undeniable document shows up to link the mark to a company, or at least until there is a common consensus regarding whether the initials are PK, or FPK.
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I was pretty certain Pallme König was eliminated years ago. But people seem to be ignoring the date range of these pieces as not tying in to when a Franz was involved in the company. So another red herring. Not helped by him having gone freelance c1880 and probably is the glasscutter that appeared at Webb in 1882.