Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: eglass on January 02, 2011, 12:28:48 AM
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Hi folks - here's to a healthy and happy 2011 for us all!
Starting off the New Year with an unidentified piece with a gorgeous engraving of a nude dancer. This vase is 8.25" tall, and about 6.25" wide at the rim.
No markings whatsoever. Can anyone recognize this as being the work of any particular cutter?
Many thanks!
Kelli
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14891
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14892
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14893
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14894
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I don't have the knowledge to recognize the cutter but this looks very much like an Orrefors design from the1930's by either Lindstrand or Gate. Looks wonderful. Could we see a picture of the whole piece and then it might be easier to find more information.
Now why didn't someone give me soemthing like this for Christmas? I shouldn't complain, really. But.....
David
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I agree that Orrefors or perhaps Kosta Boda seem likely starting points. Orrefors were very keen on nudes even when they disguised them a little as in my Palmquist Pwt(see photo).
If it is I am sure Daniel (when he looks in will be able to give you much more information than I could).
Ross
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I had a look through Swedish Glass Factories to see if I could spot this design but no luck. It did confirm, however, my initial impression that this was early 30's by Gate or Lindstrand. It's very much in the style of the Java dancers that they did, although this isn't a Java dancer. Its the angles created at the joints that help to give it that look, as well as the bracelets round the wrists and ankles. This was the period when the demand for engraved glass started to drop (the depression), and Orrefors started to reduce the number of engravers they employed.
It's not Boda, where Hoglund did some work in the 50's, or Kosta, where Lindstrand went to create some famous engraved pieces in the 50, but which were quire different in style from his 30's designs.
I should say that this is in the style of Gate or Lindstrand, as I don't know enough to say whether it's one of their designs or by somebody hitching a ride on their wagon. Like Ross, I'm eagerly awaiting the wisdom and knowledge of Daniel.
David
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The thread will probably need moving to Scandinavian Glass then to catch Daniel's eye.
John
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David, John, Ross - thank you very much for your input and suggestions on this vase!
I recently had a nice Vicke Lindstrand piece with an engraving of Icarus, and the engraving on this vase was very similar in the way that the muscles of the body were done. What made me think differently was the thinness of the glass. The Lindstrand pieces we've had have always been done on thicker blanks - could be just my inexperience in his total work.
I'm anxious to hear more. I'll try and get a better photo of the entire piece for you, David. The first one I posted shows the whole vase, but it's kind of a dark photo.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14891
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Hi: I've found a very similar design on a different shaped vase Swedish Glass Factories. The two differences I see are that in the book the face is looking outwards, not upwards, and there are three squiggly lines coming out from her lower back. Everything else is the same. The design, L 1310, is by Lindstrand in 1935. It's not unusual for the same design to be put on different shapes of glass. The main difference in the shape is that the one in the book has no stem or foot.
I'll try emailing you a scan.
David
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Hi Kelli, I found this listing on Worthpoint......looks very similar to me, what do you think?
http://www.worthpoint.com/auctionhsad/show/53772
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Just a thought, could it be that the vase or vessels were Lindstrand, but the engraving by someone else....Arthur Roos for instance..
This piece is, once again, very similar:
http://www.treadwaygallery.com/lotInfo.php?i=12620
Some lovely stuff listed on this site BTW!!!
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David, thank you for sending that scan! Yes, I agree that the engraving is very much like Lindstrand's artistry. And it shows on a thinner glass vase, like ours. I would imagine it taking greater skill to do such detailed work on thinner blanks, and he certainly had the skill.
Rosie, thank you also for the link to the Worthpoint listing. Hard to tell, it won't let me enlarge the photo - but again it looks to be done on a heavy, heavy glass blank.
Sure is a thought provoking piece!
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Personally I think you are limited thinking only Orrefors or Kosta. King's Glass Engraving in Tiffin Ohio does this type of work. King's father & grandfather cut & engraved nudes on Tiffin & other blanks for years & they are still doing it today & the fact that its a thin wall blank leads me squarely in that direction. Ken
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Rosie:
Lindstrand only designed, didn't engrave. There were a number of extremely talented engravers at Orrefors at the time. You're right about the Josephine Baker series being similar in style to the Java dancers. The next Lindstrand piece you link is later, and moving towards the style he had at Kosta in the 50's. It's interesting that the later pieces are less naked than the earlier pieces. Nudity seems not to have been a probem with 1930's Orrefors. I wonder if the change came when they started exporting to the States.
I'm pretty sure now that this is Lindstrand for Orrefors, although I can't explain why it isn't marked. Interesting to see how much they fetch at auction.
I'd still really appreciate any thoughts for Daniel, if this were moved to Scandinavian, as suggested by John.
David
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Ken:
I haven't seen much by Tiffin and nothing by King's Glass so obviously I can't rule them out. But if it is by King's Glass, then the design is a blatant rip-off of a Lindstrand design. As I don't know King's Glass, do you see this as a possibility?
David
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Ken, interesting train of thought and one I hadn't considered! I did buy this one at the same sale where I purchased the signed Lindstrand Icarus vase, so perhaps I was buttonholing myself into Scandinavian works - when the previous owner may have just collected fine engravings regardless of where manufactured.
I'll do some research on King Glass too and see if I can see anything similar - then I'll report back.
Here's some photos of the Icarus vase I've referred to (which has since been sold and now lives in England :mrgreen: )
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14902
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14900
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14897
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14895
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Well - I can't seem to find any examples of King's work. One link from Tiffin mentions a website, but that URL takes me to a non-existent page. I don't see any reference books showing their work either. I did see a couple of items made for a wedding, with engraved birds, bows and the like - but none of the older pieces, more current "trophy" or presentation pieces I'm guessing.
Ken, if you have any examples of their work (or know where I can find some) would you let me know?
Many thanks again!
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Kelli...King's is still in business, but to you have to be local midwestern to have knowledge of them. The Tiffin factory sand carved nudes were done by the grandfather, then father so you get the idea. You can take any blank (Tiffin Swedish Optic blanks are favorites) to them, look through the pattern book & they can duplicate just about anything & thats all I'll say if you get my drift. Ken
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David I do not consider that to be a blatant rip-off of a Lindstrand design no more so than I would consider a Lindstrand design to be a blatant rip-off of a 5th century Greek design simply because I believe that absolutely no one individual or company has a corner on the market when it comes to nudes since inspiration is boundless. While the Scandinavian companies produced nude design themes on many blanks so did the Bohemians/Czechs...ever look through a Hoffman Catalog? or even a Walther (german) catalog? Believe it or not we (U.S. companies) produced a wide variety of nude themed glass, especially Cambridge Glass Co. during the 30'a & I simply consider nude designs as a whole to be largely artistic interpretations & I'm not aware that you can/could maintain absolute control regarding artisitic freedom of expression, especially during those times, but thats my opinion. Ken
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Ken:
If you haven't seen the design I'm referring to in Ricke's Swedish Glass Factories, could you give me your email address so I can send you a scan of the relevant page (106). Then you can see that the design on Kelli's piece and the design shown in the book are identical apart from the two details I mentioned: the face looking outward rather than upward, and three lines coming from the waist. I have to be honest and say I would be very surprised if anyone other than Lindstrand designed Kelli's piece, although I make no claim about who engraved it.
I'll also admit that this is the second reply I've written. I was a little upset that, although it seems you haven't seen the original design I referenced, you seemed to assume my sole criterion was based on the fact that both designs were based on a nude; that is, if it's a nude, then it's a Lindstrand. Of course I don't believe that. The designs are so alike that, although one (not me) might choose to defend soemone copying them, you could never defend using the term "artistic interpretation" to describe that process.
David
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Mods:
I had a look at the front of Swedish Glass Factories and there isn't an assertion of copyright. Given that the book reproduces factory catalogues, I think it would be OK for me to post the image I'm talking about. Here it is. Now as I look at it, it looks more like the Josephine Baker line than the Java dancer.
David
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I totally agree, David! It's too similar to be anything but a version of Lindstrand's Baker series. Now whether it was a copy done by a talented artist who was copying Lindstrand's work is the question. Since it's not signed, I have to think it may be.
But without a doubt - it's Lindstrand's design. Thank you VERY much for sharing your knowledge and reference material on this piece!
Kelli
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David certainly don't know why you are upset (sorry about that), but I'll simply say I'm a hardliner & unless Vicke Lindstrand's signature is present on Kelli's piece then as far as I'm concerned its an assumption that its based on a Lindstrand design. Yes it could be a copy of a VL design, however it could also be a copy of a Simon Gate, Edvin Ohrstrom, Sven Palmqvist or a God only knows who? design executed by a competent cutter/engraver, therefore I am reluctant to positively attribute this to Lindstrand in the absence of a signature. Does it look as if its based on a Lindstrand design, yes, however the same reasoning could be applied to any countless number of designers & at that point it becomes nebulous. A signature (unless added later) provides a positive attribution & thats why I say I'm a hardliner when it comes to this sort of thing (design). Now if what appears to be a thin wall blank could be narrowed down to a particular manufacturer & time period when a particular designer was on staff then maybe, just maybe the necessary additional information attained would be enough to justify an educated estimate, but I do not see that in this case at the present time so I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Ken
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When you have a mo Kelli, as you are into engraved glassplease can you have a look at helping to ID this thread for me?
Engraved Optic Lens with Madonna and Child. LT LK ??King's
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37893.0.html
Thank you!! :wsh:
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Rosie, that's gorgeous! I'm not the one who knows about King's though, that's Ken. I'm the one who can't find any information online about King's, lol.
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Maybe he will see this conversation Kelli and have a look at it!! :X:
It is lovely, and I got it for 99p!! :rah:
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Ken:
Thanks for the explanation. I have no problem with us disagreeing; my concern was with your method of argument. The focus of your argument seems to be nudes. I never mentioned nude in any of my posts until I responded, tangentially, to a comment by Ross. For example, you wrote, "I simply consider nude designs as a whole to be largely artistic interpretations & I'm not aware that you can/could maintain absolute control regarding artisitic freedom of expression, especially during those times, but thats my opinion." I made no argument about "Maintain(ing) absolute control regarding artistic freedom," I simply said that the design on Kelli's piece bore an overwhelming similarity to a design by Lindstrand. How similar do you see the designs? BTW, Orrefors pieces at the time were on thin walled blanks and Kelli's piece is typical of Orrefors shapes of the time.
You also tend to misstate my opinion. For example, "David I do not consider that to be a blatant rip-off of a Lindstrand design." (As far as I know, you wrote that without seeing the Lindstrand design.) I actually wrote, "But if it is by King's Glass, then the design is a blatant rip-off of a Lindstrand design. As I don't know King's Glass, do you see this as a possibility?"
Finally, where do we disagree? All I've ever said that it looks very much like a Lindstrand design. I also made it clear that I wasn't saying who engraved it.
Why have I bothered to reply? For whatever reason, I get a little touchy when people wonder why I'm concerned about what they've said, and tell me we'll just have to agree to disagree, as if it were the fact of our disagreeing that has concerned me. It's not. I welcome the fact that people have different opinions. However, I do object to people misrepresenting my views, and seeming to assume my opinion is based on a complete lack of knowledge of the history of the nude, when nude has had nothing had to do with my opinion in this case. My concern is not about whether we disagree but how you argued.
You're welcome to respond, obviously, but this is my last post on this topic.
Kelli,
Sorry for diverting the thread about something quite lovely into a discussion that's not. Thank you for your comments, and I really enjoyed the little search. I wonder if Orrefors would respond to you if you wrote? Some companies (Moser, for example) are very good.
MODS: Please can this be moved to Scandinavian so Daniel might see it?
David
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David, I will give Orrefors a try. :) I'll post again when I get a reply - we'll think positive.
Good discussion, sorry if it caused a bit of a dust-up between you two at first. I appreciate seeing all viewpoints on a subject.
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"I actually wrote, "But if it is by King's Glass, then the design is a blatant rip-off of a Lindstrand design. As I don't know King's Glass, do you see this as a possibility?" David I did not mean to intentionally misquote you as I interpreted it in two ways: #1 that the design was a blantant rip off of Lindstrand or #2 is it possible that King could actually execute engraving like this? & frankly I did not know exactly how to respond. The answer to # 1 is no simply because I am not convinced its exclusively a Lindstrand design & thats why I mentioned "Simon Gate, Edvin Ohrstrom, Sven Palmqvist or God only knows who?" as possibilities & in the absence of a signature & that was where I stood & you seem to gloss over those possibilities. Answer to #2 is yes King could in all probability do a credible execution. I don't what else to say. Could it be a Lindstrand design from the periods he worked at Orrefors & Kosta, yes, but merely there are other possibilities without a signature to confirm.
Frankly I don't know how to interpret your statement "Kelli Sorry for diverting the thread about something quite lovely into a discussion that's not." I guess I'm at a loss as to why you think this discussion was evidently not relevant, but again as you point out I must be guilty of some form of miscommunication.
Part of this may stem from the fact that at age 65 with 39 years in glass (granted the vast majority in U.S. glass) I've been through the pre-WWW. internet eras when so many opinions regarding solid attributions have proven in this day & age to have been nothing but "old wife tales" & I do have a habit of perhaps overreacting & if you view this as the case here then I plead guilty as charged & did not mean to cause a disruption if in fact I have, but I did not think this had reverted into something unpleasant, merely a discussion & I heartedly agree with you that this too will be the last I'll say regarding this topic. Ken
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Hello,
I feel like someone interupting a conversation, but I can't help wondering why you are all so darn certain that the vase is Scandinavian, let alone Lindstarand, Gate, etc.
Thin glass with engraved nudes also came out of Czechoslovakia during the same period of the Orresfors and Kosta versions.
Another comment about the 'rip-off' scenario (sorry) - it seems to take no account of how the engraving was achieved. Largely speaking you are likely to get stylistic similarities within a particular subject matter, in this case the nude, particularly when interpreting the body including muscles, etc. Yes, other factors should (and have been) looked at, such as the ankle bangles, but I do feel the net should be caste wider.
Good luck with the search.
Nigel
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Nigel:
To repeat what I've said, I think the design on Kelli's piece looks very much like a Lindstrand design, not simply because it's nude, but because of many other factors: the beads round the breast, the angles of the joints on the limbs, how the fingers are splayed, the whole feeling of the design. Therefore, I suggested Orrefors would be a good place to start the search.
I've just spent five minutes looking on the computer screen at Kelli's photographs and my scan of the Lindstrand piece. It still looks to my admittedly unsophisticated eye like one of those spot the difference puzzles that used to run in British newspapers. I understand what you're saying about stylistic similarities within a particular subject matter, and I'm aware of what was happening elsewhere, but I still think think the two designs look uncannily alike. Nigel, can I ask you what you see as the major differences between the two designs? Am I wrong to think that they look very much alike? I don't know as much about engraving as Ken or Nigel so I'd love to hear an opinion on the two engraving styles.
David
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Nigel,
I've gone back and forth between David's photo and my item, and there can be no question in my mind that at the very LEAST - Vicke Lindstrand did his engraving from the same photo as was used for my vase, or someone else used Lindstrand's design as the basis for the design on my vase. The pose, dancer, accessories, etc are all too similar to be independently conceived.
I think the reason we all are "stuck" in the Scandinavian mode is because of this extreme similarity. Fascinating!
I did send off a query to info@orrefors.se, and hope to hear something back. Since it doesn't bear an Orrefors (or any other) marking, I don't know if I'll get any usable information from their customer service but one can hope.
I'd love to see examples of Czech or Bohemian glass with this design if anyone has one....
I'm always learning too, and am hardly an expert on any particular type of glass or decoration. I do know a quality piece however, and this one has all the attributes of a fine one - except for a signature.
I did take a couple of photos of this on a black background, hoping to show better detail. Don't know if I accomplished that, but here you go:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14905
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14904
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-14903
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I got a response from Orrefors already! Here is my note to them, with their response following:
"Hello!
I have a piece that is unsigned, yet bears a remarkable resemblance to a series engraved by Vicke Lindstrand. Can you take a look
perhaps, and then let me know if pieces like this were done WITHOUT bearing a signature?
Many thanks!
Kelli Rooney"
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"Hello,
It sure looks like a piece done by Vicke Lindstrand but as you say, it should have been signed with LG, which means Lindstrand engraved and maybe the signature of the engraver as well. Anyway, it must have been made of a very skilled engraver and maybe someone who worked for Vicke Lindstrand.
Best regards,
Orrefors Kosta Boda AB
Kristina Sparr"
So nothing definitive, but still good to know that requests to Orrefors are actually answered. :)
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Kelli:
Not a terribly helpful reply, although it came quickly.
John suggested that Daniel would be a good person to offer some advice. The other very obvious person is Bill Geary, who wrote a book on Scandinavian glass, and who pops into the Scandinavian Board occasionally. I'm sure he could offer some advice.
MODS In view of the info from Orrefors, is there any reason not to move this to the Scandinavian Board?
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This thread started a long time ago, but it should never be too late to admit a mistake. I was sure this was Orrefors and then I found this ad in the CGR on Jindrich's site. It looks very like the piece is Czech! Amazing!
https://picasaweb.google.com/Jindra8526/CzechoslovakGlassReview19461?authkey=Gv1sRgCK_Yn5XhubXfwQE#slideshow/5519713842265719010
David
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David - WOW! Outstanding!
Thank you so very much!
This just underlines the fact that artists copied styles that they admired and carried them through the ages and spanning different cultures. I love it that this mystery is solved - again, thank you so much.
Kelli
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Wow Kelli, that just goes to show, you should never give up trying to identify a piece of glass........and David, well spotted and well remembered.
What would we do without people like Jindrich who hold such a huge collection of glass information.
Brilliant!
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An excellent spot David! Well done on finding it, it looks to me like a definite ID, and could be moved to the Czech Bohemian zone of GMB possibly!
Robert (bOBA)
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MODS: I'm confident we can move this to Czech file as the attribution is solid. It was produced at the Kamenický Šenov works, which was formerly J & L Lobmeyr, a company that would have the skilled engravers needed for such a piece.
David