Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: seahermit on January 30, 2006, 01:47:20 AM
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Hello,
This is my first post, and I am hoping that it will be interesting to some, and perhaps we can all be the recipients of some hard-to-find history.
I have been collecting glass fishing floats ever since I found my first float together with my wife, on Shi Shi Beach in 1977. The floats that we found that day, and for the eight years that followed, while living on and beachcombing the coast of Washington State, were all Japanese.
In 1985 we left Washington State, and moved across country to New Jersey. Since that time my passion for glass floats has changed from finding and collecting Japanese-made floats to being a collector of American, British and European glass floats.
I currently am researching the glass float history and the maker's of the floats using the floats' maker's markings as a guide, and am finding that the history and who their makers were is very difficult to find. Most all of the glass houses are now out of business, and their records while illusive, are hopefully, hidden away in some library or other archive. My collection is fairly large, and the float's themselves are beautiful works of glass art--an art that I am beginning to realize is practically unknown within the glass world.
I would appreciate some feedback from interested members if you care to know more about floats, or perhaps can add to the store of knowledge that exists about them. Thanks
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I don't know anything about floats at all, but there is a picture of some on Chris Stewart's Davidson glass website here if that is any use:
http://www.cloudglass.com/davidsonpostwar.htm
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January 30, 2006 — Note that this information is flawed as it is based upon a possible error in the link cited below. See later in this topic for an explanation.
seahermit — I know only of one documented example of British-made glass floats, and that is at this Davidson link (http://www.cloudglass.com/davidsonpostwar.htm). This small range of floats, together with the ornamental fish, were introduced about 1960, made by Nazeing, and marketed by Davidson, possibly because by then Nazeing no longer had active links into the wholesale and retail fancy goods trade.
The fish are easy to recognise, with several characteristics that distinguish them from Murano fish. They are quite variable and often very attractive, so I like to maintain a small stock of two or three for my clients.
Attributing the floats is much more difficult, a problem that, to the best of my belief, has not yet been solved. One possibility is that rather than concentrating on the glass itself, it may prove more productive to attribute the netting in which they were supplied. This is where an enthusiastic collector like yourself can make a worthwhile contribution.
Warmest regards and welcome to The Glass Message Board,
Bernard C. 8)
Oops, apologies Anne, I had not seen your reply when I wrote this.
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No worries Bernard. Good to read your extra info which I wasn't aware of.
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Hi Anne,
Thank you very much for that site. I will email the site tomorrow, in the hope that I can get more information about their line of contemporary floats.
I have come across an occassional quote that stated that there was a design trend during the mid-1950's and 60's using glass floats in nautical themes in homes and businesses. Starting approx. 1955, the Japanese company Hokuyo, produced tourist trade floats using the back-to-back F's or Double F marking on 4.5 in. to 8 in. glass balls in brightly-colored red, orange, blue, green and yellow colors. The contemporary floats were made with commercial float quality thick glass, and were sometimes used for fishing. There is another series of floats stamped with the words, "Made in Czechoslovakia", that were also made in brightly-colored thick glass, that may have been made during the same time period. I have not been able to find the name of the company that made those floats or the exact time period in which they were made. One pattern that I have noticed on Ebay sales, is that almost every auction containing a "Made in Czechoslovakia", float comes from an East Coast seller from New England south to Maryland.
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seahermit — thanks for your email.
To clarify:
1. The cloud glass / Davidson website is not a manufacturer website — Davidson closed over twenty years ago — but the creation of two enthusiastic collectors, Chris and Val Stewart, who have also written and published a book on the glassworks.
2. The Nazeing / Davidson floats were generally sold "with Net" as you will see from the old trade catalogue page reproduced on the website. The point I was making is that the net itself may help you distinguish between floats by Nazeing / Davidson and those by other manufacturers.
Bernard C. 8)
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The diagram of the fish and the fishing floats is from the Nazeing Archives. There is a description of the floats and why Nazeing made them in my book "75 years of diverse Glass-making to the World", see page 36.
When I researched Nazeing Glass Works I was informed that the fish were made at Nazeing but sold by only by Davidsons, but the floats were made and sold by Nazeing, ONLY to the fishing trade at Grimsby.
I am not aware of a Davidson connection with Nazeing's floats. Of course that does not mean that Davidsons never made and sold floats to their own design!
If anyone wants a copy of my book I have just placed three on Ebay, search for Nazeing in the Potery and Glass Section
regards
Geoff Timberlake
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Geoff — apologies for getting the float story wrong. I am guilty of the error of failing to check your book. As you will see, the information from Chris' website and your book is contradictory. A MouseOver on the illustration in Chris' webste reveals the texts: "Page from 1961 catalogue showing the hand blown fish" and "Page from 1961 catalogue showing the intaglio decorated glasses". As it is a Davidson reference website, the logical conclusion is that this illustration is from a 1961 Davidson catalogue, as Chris does not specify otherwise. His text in the preceeding paragraph emphasises this error. You will notice that Anne interpreted this material in the same way.
Chris — please would you clarify this material. You can see that it is being interpreted in a way that does not match Geoff's research.
... and apologies to everyone. I should have spotted this contradictory information a long time ago. I cannot think how I missed it!
Bernard C. :oops:
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:D:D:D
My Grandfather was a mariner and I remember old fishing nets (with cork floats still attached) being used to drape over the blackcurrant bushes to save the berries from the birds, but I also remember several big green glass fishing floats being around the house. They had been used by Grandpa, well before the '60's. He retired in '51.
He was based in Edinburgh, working with Christian Salvesen, a Norwegian company.
I do not know where he got the floats.
I wish I knew where they were now!
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Right Bernard, I've bought the book, so am I right in concluding that Miller's is completely wrong about the fish. They're not Murano and they're not Davidson, they're Nazeing but were sold as Davidson. They're very pretty anyway.
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... am I right in concluding that Miller's is completely wrong about the fish ...
No, for various reasons. Miller's was not wrong, because the attributions were written by the image suppliers. Nor was the image supplier, FD, wrong, because this was written pre-Timberlake, and then virtually all authorities would have attributed these fish to Murano.
When assessing the quality of a publication, care should always be taken to consider it in the light of the state of knowledge at the time of compilation. In the case of this book, the date of compilation of the captions covers several years, as many of these images and captions were recycled from other Miller's guides.
Having said that, the quality of attributions is reasonably good but quite variable, as you would expect. On pages 82 and 83, there are two extremes. P82, top right you have a superb 5-star caption by JHa, whose material, both then and now, is consistently comprehensive and faultless. On the opposite page you see a ludicrous contradiction, where the attribution of a trinket set appears to change when it has lost its candlesticks! I imagine that BKK was rather annoyed by this, as, quite obviously, this is an example of careless recycling by Miller's of two images originally published some years apart. Their team should have spotted this, consulted and corrected it.
As knowledge has improved, so a number of unattributed items are now attributable. There are several fine pieces by Walsh and at least one by Kempton in this category.
I hope you find this book as valuable as I have. As with almost all books, one good purchase will easily cost-justify it.
Bernard C. 8)
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Today I saw and was able to photograph what I think is a green glass fishing float, which has on one end MADE IN ENGLAND in raised letters, and on the other the initials F G C.
Does anyone have suggestions as to who F G C would have been please?
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Today I saw and was able to photograph what I think is a green glass fishing float, which has on one end MADE IN ENGLAND in raised letters, and on the other the initials F G C.
Does anyone have suggestions as to who F G C would have been please?
Hello Anne,
I wanted to thank those of you who have responded to my initial post about glass fishing floats, and also to respond to your latest post. I just received an email telling me that you had posted, and am happy to know that there is some interest to date.
Yes, that is a glass fishing float. I have a few variations of the FGC Made in England floats. I believe that FGC are the initials for the Foster Glass Company. I have tried to find the facts to support my guess, going as far as the research dept. of a library that holds the Foster Glass Company records. Unfortunately, nothing about fishing float production was located.
Among the variations of this marking is one that was machine made with a raised neck seal. The Northwestern Glass Co. of Seattle, Washington, Cincotta Brothers floats, and Owens/Illinois of Oakland California, also produced machine-made floats with the raised neck seals. I am thinking that only larger bottle producers with the capital to afford the machines necessary to produce in quantity, would have made these raised neck floats. Foster Glass Company was that type of company.
The marking on the raised neck floats occurs on the side of the float. The mark reads: "Pat. Pending", below that the number 1 or 2, and below the number, "FGC."
Another variation is without the raised neck seal. In its place is a "seal button," like the float in your post. The seal button is a gather of glass which was placed over the hole left from a blowpipe than flattened to seal the float.
Again, on the side of the float, the same words, numbers and letters occur.
A third variation only has the letters, "FGC," embossed onto the seal.
The fourth version, which I think came at the end of the company's float production, is like your posted float. The embossing, "Made in England," is on the top of the float, with the letters, "FGC," on the seal.
I have another float that I believe was made by the same English company. It too has the raised neck seal, and is embossed solely with an anchor on the side of the float.
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Fleming, 1938, reports that floats and Witch balls were being made by Scottish East Coast glass works and that would date to around 1700. He describes that the mariners would decorate a pair, take on on the trip and the other hung in a window of the house. Adding that decorated ones are really found as the paint easily came off. However, as a source he is not always reliable.
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Seahermit, thank you for such a detailed reply, what a very interesting area this is. Can you tell me more about Foster Glass Company please, like where they were in England, as this is a totally new name for me.
I should also have added dimensions to the post above, this one is approx 6" in diameter.
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Benjamin Foster Glass Works, Stockwell 19th Century perhaps
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Seahermit, thank you for such a detailed reply, what a very interesting area this is. Can you tell me more about Foster Glass Company please, like where they were in England, as this is a totally new name for me.
I should also have added dimensions to the post above, this one is approx 6" in diameter.
Hi Anne, At this time, I cannot find my original research on the company, and I made a mistake in the company's name. The name was Forsters Glass Co. Ltd. I believe that it was located in St. Helens, Lancashire, and my research went through the St. Helens Library. If you know of this company, perhaps we can add something meaningful to this thread.
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Here is a bit of info (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=139-fo&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18)
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1931
Forster's Glass Co., Ltd., Atlas Bottle Works, St. Helens
London office:
Forster's Glass Co., Ltd., 57, Victoria Street, S.W.1
1935
A gratifying review of the past year's operations of Forster's Glass Co. was given by Sir Sydney H. H. Henn at the annual meeting of the company. The profit for the year was £41,205 and £17,000 added to the reserve account, which now stands at £60,000. Sales did not quite reach the record total of last year, but by means of increased efficiency in the works it was possible to somewhat improve the profits. etcetera
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I've posted two photos of different FGC floats on my blog over here (http://seahermit.blogspot.com/). One photo shows the raised neck seal, the other shows the normal type of float seal with side of glass marking.
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The diagram of the fish and the fishing floats is from the Nazeing Archives. There is a description of the floats and why Nazeing made them in my book "75 years of diverse Glass-making to the World", see page 36.
When I researched Nazeing Glass Works I was informed that the fish were made at Nazeing but sold by only by Davidsons, but the floats were made and sold by Nazeing, ONLY to the fishing trade at Grimsby.
I am not aware of a Davidson connection with Nazeing's floats. Of course that does not mean that Davidsons never made and sold floats to their own design!
If anyone wants a copy of my book I have just placed three on Ebay, search for Nazeing in the Potery and Glass Section
regards
Geoff Timberlake
Hi Roget123,
Until recently, I did not know that I had replies to my initial question concerning British and other European glass fishing floats. I apologize for the delay in answering you.
I received an email from Mr. John Doyle concerning glass fishing float production at Nazeing Glass Works, which you may find interesting.
According to the email, Nazeing produced fishing floats for the fishing industry in Grimsby. The floats were sold in sets of colors: one ruby and one blue; two ruby; one ruby and one blue, and did not have a maker's marking.
The company later had problems with the Customs & Excise, who wanted to collect tax on floats sold as souvenirs. The company successfully argued that it only sold glass fishing floats to the fishing industry, and had no control over where the floats were resold to.
I would very much like to see a copy of the Davidson 1961 catalogue, and have asked the owner(s) of the site that you directed me to, for a photo of the floats from the catalogue-if they have one.
I truly appreciate your reply.
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Hi Seahermit,
I found glass floats here in Eureka, Ca. I have two sets of three of the Cincotta Bros (the netting of one is tied to the netting of the other two, two small brown floats with an "NW in an oval with the number 3 under it - the netting matches, one brown float with the same "NW" in an oval and the number 2 under it, and my favorite one which may be a light yellow ...(or the original dirt - grin) and the netting is perfect and dark brown has a strange marking, please see the attached sketch.
So, ten total. I'd like to sell them. Can you help?
Kathleen
BTW - I lived in Hammonton/Blue Anchor in the early 80's. Odd.
Phone number removed for privacy purposes. To contact Kathleen by email, click on the envelope icon under her username in the info box to the left.
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Hi Kathleen,
I've had to remove your phone number for the sake of your own privacy. Seahermit should be able to contact you by email, if your email address is correct.
Are you having trouble with posting an image? If so, just let us know.
The board guidelines prescribe that you can't really offer items for sale in the Glass section, but it might be okay to leave it here until you've contacted Seahermit. After then, we'll have to move your post to the Marketplace.
Cathy
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Good Morning Kathleen,
That is quite a find. All of the floats with marks that you detailed are American-made floats. The Cincotta Brothers floats were from Cincotta Brothers Hardware & Supplies in San Francisco. They were machine-made, which leads me to the thought that they were made for Cincotta Brothers by Owens/Illinois Glass Co. of Oakland, Ca., which as you know, is right across the bridge from San Francisco. They are not a rare float, but are not common either. Made in clear glass, they are offered for sale on Ebay auctions about 6 times per year, give or take a few. I do think that it is very interesting that you have three roped together. Without seeing a photograph of them, I do not know if they were roped together to act as a net marker.
The other NW marked floats are also American machine-made glass balls. They were made by Northwestern Glass Company of Seattle, Washington. I would like to know what the diameter of the floats are. You can make an easy measurement by just using a ruler to measure the height from top to bottom. That is a rough diameter, but tells me all that I need to know. These floats were made in three sizes that I know of. The largest is approx. 6 inch diameter. They were made in clear and beer bottle brown glass, but also occur in a nice honey yellow glass, and sometimes very dark brown.
All of these floats were made during the 1940's, especially during the WWII years, when there was a demand for fish to supply the homefront with protein and vitamins, as well as the troops. The North American fishermen had no access to German or Japanese-made glass floats, so there was a demand which was quickly filled by a few American Glass Companies. The Northwestern Glass Co. made more floats than any of the others involved, and their floats, except for some very rare test models, are common.
I am interested in the float that you say may be yellowish glass with a mark. Too bad that you have not been able to post your drawing or a photo. I see that Cathy B has offered you help, and hope that you can post the mark. Do let the readers know more about that float including it's diameter.
Thank you for your post.
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Hi again,
The floats range from 4" to 5" in diameter. Hope these photos go thru...
Kathleen
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Floats!
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Hi Kathleen,
The photo of the mark shows your float to be from the Owens/Illinois Glass Co. of Oakland, Ca. On the website, Society for Historical Archaelogy, Bill Lockhart has written an extensive article on the company. There is a table of the company's plants with their numbers, and information on how to translate the mark. If I am reading the information correctly, your float's mark indicates that the float was made at the Oakland plant (the #20), and the number to the right (2) seems to indicate that the float was made in 1952. I am uncertain of this, but Mr. Lockhart's table states that the Oakland plant was started in 1946, and that is why the 2 would indicate 1952. The number 7 supposedly shows mold details, and I would very much like to know what mold details are indicated by this number.
These floats often have the name "Duraglas," embossed onto the bottom side of the float, with markings similar to your's on the base. They also occur without the "Duraglas" stamping, less frequently.
I would guess that your float is dirty, and not yellow, although it is possible that the glass is amber having a batch of clear glass possibly mixed into a pot that had been used for brown glass, and not completely cleaned of that color. If you do have a yellow/amber float, kindly let me know. All of the Owens/Illinois floats that I have seen were of clear glass.
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Hi,
You are a wealth of knowledge on this - It's all so interesting. Thank you so much! Cathy B said she moved my first message to the market place. What is that and how do I get there from here?
Kathleen
Ummmm.... I think it has the original dirt and not yellow. I'm not sure how to clean it or if I should. It does not have a Duraglas stamp. I have three that are a very dark brown.
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It's not been moved yet, but the Market Place forum is here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/board,4.0.html - feel free to post any glass items for sale in there. :)
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To the readers of this topic I wanted to tell you that a blog has been started in an attempt to draw together the photos, stories, and knowledge of all those interested in glass fishing floats. It can be found at: www.seahermit.blogspot.com
It is my hope that you will go there, enjoy a good read, hopefully increase your knowledge, and above all feel free to contribute to the blog.