Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Malta Glass => Topic started by: flying free on July 03, 2011, 01:06:53 PM
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Unfortunately he is a teeny bit chipped at the end of the top lip - I can't find another in this shape. The others all appear to have larger heads and manes and certainly the ones I have had in the past appear to be much heavier and solid shaped. This one has two clear 'bulbous' bits to the body atop of which sits a very small delicate head and a fine thin pie crust mane. Dates 1973 (photo not totally clear but it is definitely 1973 not 1978). Signed Mdina Malta 1973. Measures 12cm tall
I thought this might help with future dating other pieces, writing similarities etc. According to other posts, these were originally done by Joseph Said as a chess set for a commission but he continued to blow the Seahorse as a stand alone piece. (thanks Sue and I hope I interpreted that right).
m
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I'm sorry, but honestly I do think it's an 8, not a 3. Said took charge (but not as full owner) and had some design input in '75, but I really do not think it likely he was comissioned to do the chess set before that - I know he mastered working glass quite rapidly, but I'm afraid I truly believe that he had absolutely no design input until he was in charge.
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Sue thanks, :) I have to be intransigent in this one though - it definitely is a 3, there is no question. Which is why I thought it was interesting and why I bought it despite it being chipped at the lip. And it isn't a trick of the light or a missed part of the number.
m
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this is a Mdina piece signed 1978 for comparison.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-1978-Mdina-Glass-Paperweight-Signed-Harris-/250694106018?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5e887ba2
Ironically I have a Maltese friend here today, who has just drawn me how they do 8's in Malta and they look like the eight on this link. She said they start from the middle and go down on the left then round the bottom and then up and hook over the top. (Actually I can't know that ALL Maltese do it that way of course, but she ventured that they do it a curious way and that's how she showed me and said that is how her mother does it....she herself doesn't because she is a teacher of children with special needs here and obviously has learnt to do it the way they teach in school here). She has also looked at the seahorse and confirmed it is a '3' .
so... the mystery deepens then.
m
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I think we may have to agree to differ, then. There is not consistency between an 8 on one bit of glass or another - loads of folk did the marks.
I think it highly unlikely Said would have been commissioned to design anything while Eric Dobson was still there - somebody surely would have commissioned Dobson rather than Said?
I'm afraid (this is my personal opinion obviously) Said, while being a wonderful glassmaker, has no talent for design whatsoever.
Another thing which makes me dubious is I have tried to make a note of the dates which do appear - I haven't found any general date marks (such as this is) before '74.
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Sue, my apologies for misrepresenting what you had written, my use of wording was incorrect... I should not have said 'commissioned' and I think that by doing so I have inadvertently caused a red herring in this post. However the post I was referring to did say these were designed by Joseph Said. (But that was in 2008 so information may have changed since then?)
'These "seahorse" chess pieces were designed by Joseph Said - after he'd been asked to make a chess set, he decided to carry on making these Knights as paperweights.'
see link thread here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,23855.msg133637.html#msg133637
With regards the date, we can agree to differ but that leaves me holding a seahorse that I can see is definitely dated 1973 from Mdina.
The script looks real and right and looks as though it was all done at the same time and not by an amateur.
The curious thing is that the Seahorse is a different shape and design, to those I have owned and those I can find on the net at the moment in google images. The mane and the angle of the head being most obviously different.
Does anyone else have any pics of seahorses that look like mine please?
I suppose my musings are, if I can't find any others that are the same,and given the date on mine, is this piece a precursor to the chess board, or indeed a part of the chess board, and could it mean that Joseph Said was asked to make a chess board fairly early on in his career and fairly soon after Michael Harris left?
m
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:hi:
You have interpreted correctly m - Said was, I believe, commissioned to make a chess set, and continued making these Knight pieces afterwards. I have seen several really wonky ones, some with great big bases like yours. They have also been seen with blue tops, (as in outer casings and head) in reds, and in browns.
In the more common blue ones cased in clear, the bases are sometimes random yellowy bits on blue, or with vertical yellowy stripes on blue - kind of sea urchin-y. I've also seen them up to about 9" in height - with big fat bases like yours.
The info. I had about their origins has not been altered or corrected, to my knowledge, and I wrote the bit you quoted.
I suppose the best way to clear all this up would be for you to write to Mdina with pictures of this beast, and ask Said himself!
As it's his work, I imagine you should get a reply. :X:
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I'll drop him a line and see if they come back.
It may also help with dating earlier Mdina in that period you are looking at (although sadly it's not a dated fish :cry: if only it was a fish with a small chip ;D I'd be very happy) but still, in it's own way it's a rather cute little piece.
m
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It looks like 73 to me too. :ooh: and i havent seen that shape before
Just my 2penneth worth
;)
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Hi ,
Why not Boffo.................... Here is a pic of a horse he made while he was at Whitefriars.
Study the nose and the mane.
Regards,
Patrick.
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Sue thanks for your help and information and Patrick, thank you also!
I was curious as to whether..... :X: but didn't want to say so.
Sue what do you think? I think that head looks remarkably similar. I wonder....
so, could we have a seahorse that maybe wasn't originally designed by Joseph Said after all? ooh I'm all excited now that we could have some new information.
m
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just for reference comparison, this link should show a set of Keith's seahorses from Mdina. I'm off to trawl others to look for comparisons but these represent the ones I am familiar with where despite the size, the heads seem more in keeping size wise, with the body than mine. The other differences as well as the angle of the head and the type of mane, is that the length of the face on the ones I am familiar with is much shorter than on the one at the top of this thread and the length of the neck is much longer (the neck on my one is non existant). I'll report back if I find any more proportionately like mine :sun:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,30184.msg163584.html#msg163584
m
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Patrick, the official information is that these things are Said's design.
Boffo was gone from Mdina by '73, I'm sure - although I still haven't heard from the wfs folk who were going to find out for me when it was that Boffo went to MDG.
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Hi m, :hi:. just out of interest, I thought you might like to see this very unusual coloured one for sale on eBay Australia.....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360217652805
So, is the 'chess set piece' an urban myth, or are they really seahorses?????
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That one's Mtarfa - Phoenician make them too.
The chess set story, to my knowledge, is absolutely true.
I haven't a clue why somebody called them seahorses - they look nothing like seahorses. Might as well call them Kelpies!
How many variations can there be on pulling a bit of hot glass into a vaguely horsey head shape? :spls: :spls: :spls:
I've seen a video clip of Franco Toffolo pulling one - the Murano horsey ornaments have been around for donkey's years (I even succumbed to buying one for my favourite teacher when I was 8 years old) and show similarities in shape.
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So, is the 'chess set piece' an urban myth, or are they really seahorses?????
So can anyone give a link to an image of a Joseph Said complete Chess set......... Or even a Rook, Pawn etc.
Regards,
Patrick.
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I can't - but I'm still searching ;D However, I've no idea how big this chess set was. I assume in my head it was LARGE, because all the pieces (for that read 'seahorses') I see are much bigger than a 'traditional' chess set size piece. And because I assume it was large, for some reason I have decided in my head that those paperweights with the knob on top are derived from what would have been the pawns. Obviously this is just my theory...dont' let it turn into an urban myth ::)
Who was it made for? Was it for a hotel, like the rather large ashtrays?
m
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You could always ask Said......
I honestly don't know anything about the original chess set at all.
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OK I will add this request for more info to my email once I send it (currently doing two lots of tax returns which is hurting my head :thud:)
m
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:X:
And good luck coping with the tax returns - have you got a decent treat lined up for yourself for finishing them?
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my treat will be if the tax office actually deliver the small rebate I am owed within the two weeks they claim they will ;D (hopefully will fund the airfare for my Barcelona trip with friend :rah:)
m
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From chopin-liszt: " That one's Mtarfa - Phoenician make them too."
But they are all Maltese, aren't they Sue??
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:thud:
You waste glass money on holidays???????
m - there's no hope for you. :cry:
Phoenician, Mtarfa, Mdina and Gozo are all related to the island of Malta, yes, Rosie.
(But Gozo was set up and is run by English folk.)
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That's possibly why the Gozo stuff looks different? I have got a few pieces....and some phoenician as well.
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They all arose because of Michael Harris originally, but Gozo is the newest and had his input after he'd been at Isle of Wight Studio Glass, while the others arose from the work and teaching he'd done at Mdina. Paul Said, one of the original Mdina apprentices, set up Mtarfa, and Phoenician Glass was set up by Leonard Mulligan (on Manoel island). Gozo was set up by (the same) Leonard Mulligan and Rupert Brookes with Michael Harris.
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So can anyone give a link to an image of a Joseph Said complete Chess set......... Or even a Rook, Pawn etc.
As far as we know a set was made for a commission, it appears they were not made thereafter. How likely is it that the owner has posted photos of it? I appreciate this is no argument for it's existence, just it's non appearance.
As for Mdina seahorses in general, :-X.
Three sold at an auction I attended on Saturday for thirty quid :o, there is 'one' born everyday.... Mind you I have seen an Ikea tat vase sell for twenty quid at that auction and you can find one of those (like a p1ss pot with a bent top) in every charity shop in the country.
Gozo generally make the most interesting glass from Malta these days, IMHO.
John
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"Gozo generally make the most interesting glass from Malta these days, IMHO."
I have to agree with you there John....I have some Gozo ellies that are a delight, and a bright yellow Phoenician ellie that is different to any of the Mtarfa ones I have......
But back to the 'seahorses'......I have never really hankered after one, but I thought the pink Phoenician one was really rather more carefully made.
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I always thought they were made because of the association that Malta has with Knights. As in the Knights of Malta.
I still think that makes sense bearing in mind they are made by all the Maltese glass works.
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I agree with the Gozo comments ;D
A bit off topic, im on holiday on the isle of wight for a few days with the parents! first time for 30 odd years or more!
Sunday, i watched Timothy Harris blowing glass , super stuff, prices of new IOW glass, not cheap!
I had to mention to him, that i had one of his Dads early crizzle stones with original price sticker on it £8-2-6!
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,19092.0.html
he offered to buy it back at the same price ;)
My Dad, asked him for a photo with me, which he was glad to do. I will post it when i get home .
Cheers all,
Andy
8)
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Hope you're having a wonderful time Andy..and good weather.
Sue I have two obsessions, one is glass but the overriding one is travel. Before kids we did a lot of travelling, now that is severely curtailed so any opportunity I have to go abroad I take, and one of my great loves is Spain, especially Barcelona :rah:
In defence of the seahorses, I've had a couple of them, quite large, given away as presents. I have to say that I thought they made fantastic pressies especially for kids (one went to the goddaughter of a friend who is into horses) and also that many non-glassy people are especially attracted to them. I guess so many wouldn't be made if they didn't sell, so perhaps it's just that glassy people don't particularly like them, but the general public do.
Personally I prefer a vase anyday ;D
m
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I've had a lovely reply from Mdina to confirm that Mr Said did make this seahorse in the picture that started this thread. They said they could not confirm whether or not it was from the chess set, but thought it was unlikely. I take it from that comment added to other information on this thread, that a chess set definitely does exist.
m
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Hi,
Did he confirm the date as 1973 ?
As you have a contact there now perhaps you could ask them when Boffo left .
All best wishes,
Patrick.
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Patrick it definitely is dated 1973, it is very clearly marked. So unless they have been putting the wrong years on things, I have no reason to believe it wasn't made in 1973 by Mr Said :) I presume the email meant Joseph Said.
I will ask in my thank you note and see if they come back to me again.
m
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Hi,
I am 100% with you on the date.................
I am just wondering how proficient Said was at glass-making in 1973 as I still think it was made by Boffo.
Best wishes,
Patrick.
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It's interesting but it certainly doesn't look very proficient for Boffo; its base very lop-sided just for a start.
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Well I don't know too much about Mdina, but I thought Boffo left in 1973 and Eric Dobson was in charge then, but I thought Eric Dobson didn't make glass - so someone had to be making the glass and I just presumed it was Joseph Said :-\ and as I say, Mdina have confirmed that Mr Said made this particular horse.
I agree with you the head of the horse and its mane looks very like the horse you picture you posted by Boffo and very unlike the Mdina seahorses I am familiar with, however to be honest that is not conclusive evidence is it?
It maybe that the early seahorses looked like my one because Said developed this idea from tutelage from Boffo, and gradually he developed them to become more the piece they are today?
m
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This one http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=580 has a bigger head and mane but a similar body shape and a stock label.
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Josef Said was a taken on as a trainee in 1968, so by 1973 he had been working with glass for five or so years.
John
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Hi,
I had not realized that.................. So he may have made the seahorse.
Although I think it takes many years to go from Bit gatherer , to footmaker and then servitor . Still think it looks very Boffo and could have been made by him before he left in 1973.
Regards,
Patrick.
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Thanks for that Christine :) . I can see the similarity in the body shape, but the angle of the head, the neck and the mane are different to mine. I have yet to see another seahorse with the shape of mine and the closest shape so far is a horse made by Boffo, balanced by the fact that I have now been told that Mr Said has confirmed he made my seahorse. I'm interested in the decor in the base of your seahorse. It looks as though it has regularly spaced vertical bubbles all around the base? and has a crizzle effect?
m
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I think the vertical bubbles are artefacts of a blue gob being blown into a ribbed mould to give a sea urchin effect after being rolled in silver chloride. The silver chloride has burnt round his neck where it was on the surface.
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Hi, yesterday I was at Mdina glass in Malta and organised a jolly good chat with Joseph Said. For about 1 1/2 hours we chatted about all sorts to do with early Mdina Glass (Boffo in particular) and he showed me all round the place, a throughly nice bloke he is too
I mention to him about the 'seahorses'.
Firstly he calls them 'Horse' paperweights not sea horses. He stated that they were originally designed and made by Vincente Boffo who joined Mdina in 1970 and left for MDG in 1977 (he wasn't 100% sure about the leaving date but about then).
The one featured above must be made by Boffo and as such I want it ;D
I will be doing a little write up about my visit for GMB with pics when I get a chance, Wolfie
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:hiclp: how great that you arranged to speak to Joseph Said - it sounds as though it was a lovely visit and an informative visit as well. A piece of glassmaking history. And thank you !! thank you for asking about the horse. I really appreciate that :sun:
And just to clarify Wolfie, did you mean the one Christine linked to as 'the one featured above' or did you mean the one I posted at the top of this thread?
m
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Hi, I think certainly yours and very likely the other were made by Boffo, i think the thin head is the key here. He also said that boffo made Friggers for the first 2 years, in his lunch breaks and at weekends. WF style penguins, fish, bowls were mentioned, in Mdina colours, yes please!!!!!! He has a Boffo Mdina fish at the factory (which his mother broke, grim) but couldn't locate it, I was dying for a quick snap of that! Wolfie
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Hi,
Wolfie's visit and face to face chat with Joseph has now clarified many of the previous comments on this thread.
I am pleased that my thoughts on them being designed by Boffo and made originally by him are correct. Clearly the Whitefriars frigger thin horse's head can be seen in the Mdina 'Horse' paperweights.
All best wishes,
Patrick.
PS, images of my BOFFO Mdina fish...... solid and hollow.
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Wow, and thanks for all this Wolfie! :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp:
I'm now a tiny bit confused, given Said said he'd made M's horse, and that the "percieved wisdom" had been that Said designed these because he had designed the chess set.
Good to have this clarified, along with an approximate date of Boffo leaving - much later than I had thought - but it does help explain so much good quality glass coming out of Mdina in those earlier days.
Given Said took over in '75, despite his slight vagueness over exact date that Boffo left, one would assume Said at least was aware that Boffo stayed on for a good bit after the takeover.
There's a lot to consider here, Wolfie, thanks again - you've got info for the folk into these animally things - and for folk who're into his other work.
(my MDG collection is growing very nicely :smg: )
Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you!
:dance:
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Many thanks from me too Wolfie !
Well here is another I found today :dance:
The date is 1973 the same !! Sorry about the flash photos but the evenings have gone all dark !!
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Please see thread link below on a piece of Whitefriars glass, where the workbooks were linked to and the last date for Vicente Boffo in the Whitefriars workbooks that were linked to is June 1970 - this ties in with Mr Said's comment that Vicente Boffo started at Mdina in 1970.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,45680.msg256014.html#msg256014
If these dates are correct this means the information in Mark Hill's book about the Boffo's joining in October 1969 is incorrect (just for future reference). There are photos in Mark's book taken from the Times of Malta in May 1970 but the photo is only of Ettore Boffo not Vicente. it may be that Ettore started at Mdina before Vicente?
m
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That's interesting ! Here's a better photo taken in natural light.
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Did any of you ever see this listing? Different but interesting?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220937356936
Rosie.
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That's Mtarfa. I've seen them (with labels, which is how I know) in pink too.
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Thanks Sue, I did imagine it was Maltese, so it's good to have a positive attribution.......I just thought it was nice to see one that was a bit different.....I still haven't found another one with the heavily embossed patterning on the mane though.