Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Malta Glass => Topic started by: goyjus on August 22, 2011, 02:12:34 PM
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Need some help with identifying this piece.
I know it's Maltese as it says 'Present from Malta!' on the base together with the names of the givers.
I was wondering if it may be by Michael Harris. Does anyone have any thoughts?
Many thanks
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interesting item, out of curiosity what are the names on the base?
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Definitely Mdina :o :o
It's from Mike, Betty, Timothy and Jonathan
Well done
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I'd really like to see more images!
The top part looks like early Mdina, the bottom part doesn't.
I can't work out if it says "Present from Malta! With all our love, Mike, Betty, Timothy and Jonathon.", or Kate, Betty, Timothy and Jonathon.
I know Michael Harris was known as Mike, I don't know if his wife Elizabeth is ever known as Betty, (she signs my Christmas card "Elizabeth", but that might be her way of doing the Collectors' Club cards - close personal friends might be different), the sons are Timothy and Jonathon.
I can't work out what colour the bottom part is, exactly, or how the colours work in it, or how they work in with the top part.
I'd like to see a pic of the inside of the rim - to see how the layers of glass work together, and to see if there are manufacturing or tool marks in it.
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What a lovely looking piece of glass, photos with a white background on a white surface will help - the dark surface underneath results in the bottom half of the vase turning into a mirror.
Dimensions too please.
Looks like a variation on the inside out vase shape.
:mrgreen: :o :mrgreen:
John
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The shape reminded me a little of your Yellow Ochre Inside Out vase, John.
Difficult to see the detail, from the photo's, but the base does seem intriguing, especially the colour. Still a little confused by the Betty name, I presume it must just have been a name used for Elizabeth by the family..?
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The blue looks completely wrong.
And there are so many folk out there adding names to bits of glass for reasons of their own, I'm not really paying too much attention to the names yet - as I've said, I don't know if Elizabeth is ever known as Betty. (I'm far too much in awe of her to even consider the notion, I'd find it easier to call the queen "Betty" to her face than Elizabeth Harris!)
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Would be interested to see what Ron Wheeler and Timothy Harris think of this piece, would be worth emailing them for their thoughts.
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Wow. What a response. Thanks very much. Just to confirm the inscription reads:
'Present from Malta! with all our love Mike, Betty, Timothy and Jonathan.'
If memory serves, my mother bought the piece at Cheltenham Racecourse at least 20 years ago. Will check this with her. I've always loved it, so she passed it on to me along with another piece a year or so ago. The other piece is a more traditional Mdina axe head vase and it's signed in full 'Mdina Glass 1976' plus a signature that I can't read. I was told Michael Harris had left by this point. I will post some shots of it. Would be hugely grateful if you could help me identify the maker.
In the meantime, here are some more pics of the smaller piece. It's a little over 3in high by 4in wide.
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Could you add a few new shots of the base please..?
Just to mention, I would suspect the name on the fish is Dobson. Always hard to decipher.
Thanks
Greg
:sun:
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Here's another one of the base. Sorry my photography skills are somewhat limited...
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And here's one from above...
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It's not an axe head, :tsk: it's a FISH.
Axe head is a mismomer which unfortunately got into print early on and we've been trying to get rid of it ever since! It was coined by Mark Hill to describe these vases before he knew the real name.
If the signature is not Eric Dobson's, it's Joseph Said's - which is equally hard to decipher, but it can often be done - I've got confirmed images of each for comparing.
Is this an accurate representation of the actual blue in these photographs?
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Thanks Sue. I sit corrected. Should I post the photos of the base of the Fish on this thread or start another.
As far as the blue goes, I'd call it cobalt. The pictures have mainly be taken in natural light though there is a flash on the one marked 'Mdina2'.
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I think I wan't John's opinion of whether or not it might be cobalt - if it is, that's another extra goodie - but it doesn't look at all right to me - the rest of it does, the writing even looks like MH's.
I'm not at all happy about the blue, I'm not! :cry:
(I need to get my sticky mitts on it - but if I did, you might not get it back!)
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I would stick the photos of the Fish in a separate thread.
;)
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Cheers Greg.
Sue - I'd say cobalt is the most accurate description of the colour. On the close up of the base shots it looks a bit brighter/lighter than actual. Hope that helps.
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Ooooh, ooooh.... :thud:
Stunning bit of glass, thanks for adding the extra photos.
I have a signed charger (by Michael Harris) with a personal inscription and the script on your vase looks spot on, so I reckon engraved by Michael Harris, very nice.
Charger: https://picasaweb.google.com/Johnmj100/EarlyMdinaGlass#5541209742646253202
The size of the vase is very similar to this inside out and they share that ochre 'bubbly crown'.
The blue colour looks to my eye just like the blue of that facet cut inside out we swapped for the ochre one below Sue: https://picasaweb.google.com/Johnmj100/EarlyMdinaGlass#5429986698506432370
It is not what I would describe as the Mdina cobalt, seen on the wings of this fish vase: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,28360.0.html
Whatever we call it it is a gorgeous inside out vase, am I repeating myself?
John
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I would send an email with a few pictures to Timothy and Elizabeth Harris at Isle of Wight Glass, I'm sure they would remember the piece. Would be interesting to find out the date....
I wouldn't be surprised if it was made at a very early stage.
Great item!
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Deep turquoise then. Not cobalt, John. :thup:
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Goygus's vase looks cobalt to me on my monitor. Turquoise has more than a hint of green
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If it helps, it's definitely not the same colour as the faceted piece that John posted the link to.
Greg - many thanks. I will do that and let you know how I get on.
Thanks for all your posts.
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It does not look the same colour as the faceted inside out because in the faceted piece there are various layers and colours underneath the blue which give the overall colour that you can see, the glass is very thick. However, when you hold it in your hand it is easier to see the components.
Cobalt blue is usually (given these things are somewhat subjective) a darker blue than I see in the photos.
John
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The depth/shade of colour depends on how much colorant is used. The colour is the same, it's the shade/hue that varies.
Cobalt blue (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cobalt+blue&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUK282&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7WNTTsudA5O5hAfHnIn0Bg&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1016&bih=607)
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The interest here is that there was only ever one pot of cobalt blue melted at Mdina - and I don't think this is from that pot - it's not the right blue....
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The interest here is that there was only ever one pot of cobalt blue melted at Mdina
I know that; I'm just trying to help define the colour.
John's fish looks to have cobalt over cobalt, which makes the shade deeper. To my eyes, the blue looks the same, just not the same intensity.
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:kissy: I know you know - I didn't know if Goyjus knows, and it is important!
This Fish is not cobalt.
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Hey all. You can assume my knowledge is fairly limited. Any ideas on how to settle the colour issue?
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>:D easily - give it to me - :smg:
Or, if you're going to the National in November, bring it along - with an army of guards, obviously - so John and Suzy and I can fondle it.
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I might just do that. Will let you know!
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I would love to take a closer look at that inside out vase - possibly my favourite shape from Mdina. The National Glass Collectors Fair is held in the National Motorcycle Museum fairly close to the NEC just outside Birmingham (on 13th November).
That fish that I linked to is made with two different blues, the central bubble is in a lighter blue than the dipped cobalt wings. This inside out does not look to be from 'that' cobalt pot to my eye, it looks like a different tone of blue.
Goyjus, just out of curiosity, can you see whether there is a layer of clear glass over the top of the blue and the yellow ochre section (known as cased) - it looks like that from your photo of the base.
John
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You could ask one of the junior Harris's via their websites and then bring it to the National as well.
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John - yes it is cased. I think you're right inasmuch as the blue is different from the one in the link you posted. My piece is kind of an inky, midnight blue. Hope my description isn't misleading.
Christine - I've forwarded pictures via the Isle of Wight glass site. Many thanks.
Will let you know if I get a response.
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Hello. Just thought I'd share with you some information I received on the piece from Ron Wheeler.
As far as the colour is concerned, he says the blue was created using manganese and the golden brown using silver chloride. The blue glass melt indicates early Mdina production which he puts at around 1969/70 - although this is not definitive.
On the handwriting, he says neither he nor Elizabeth Harris readily recognise it as that of Michael Harris, however he does go on to say it is similar to the style of handwriting he used whilst at the RCA. This is probably stating the obvious but he says the piece would have been made by Michael Harris, probably as a thank you from the family to a friend.
I've paraphrased here but think I've covered the salient points. Hope this is of interest!
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So Ron doesn't think it's cobalt blue.
I've taken some pics of various early blues and some cobalt - but I've not downloaded or sorted them yet.
The biggest mystery to me is how on earth did such a fabulous present end up in the secondary market???
It seems to me to be highly disrespectful..... :grrr:
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Thanks Sue. I'd be interested in seeing those when you get a chance.
I thought exactly the same as you with regards to such a personal gift being sold on. I can only assume this wasn't the down to the original recipient.
My mother bought the piece at Malvern Flea Market over 20 years ago and I was with her at the time. I'm fairly sure that she was told by the dealers that they knew the original recipient but have no clue as to who this may have been. It certainly has an appreciative home now!
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To "our" knowledge (that's me, Suzy, John, Christine and a good few other Harrisophiles) we have not seen a piece like this before - that doesn't mean there isn't another out there, there might be, but it's certainly a truly fabulous and very early piece by Michael Harris - I'm glad it's being appreciated properly now.
(but I could appreciate it more here, with me, I could! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: )
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Thanks for the update.
Interesting that the hand writing wasn't readily recognised as that of Michael Harris whilst at Mdina and more reminiscent of his time at the RCA.
As mentioned strange how personal items such as these enter the general market, especially being purchased over twenty years ago, the piece would have been no more than 20 years old. There was an early globe posted by another GMB member in the link below, which was thought to have originated from a friend of the Harris family.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40501.msg224164.html#msg224164
Still a little intrigued by the colour.
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Sue - thanks for this. Bonus to know it's a rare piece. This makes up for my considerable disappointment at my mother having sold for a song another Harris piece of hers I had my eye on. A real beauty with applied flower heads. Somebody had a bargain at Malvern Flea over the summer. My loss was their gain!
Greg - cheers for the link. What still intrigues with regards to the colour?
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This was always going to be an unusual and desirable piece, you just don't see items like this cropping up hardly at all. :mrgreen:
Difficult to gauge the precise tone of the blue, always difficult to ascertain from photographs, opposed to actually holding the item in the hand. Would be interested to compare the colour of this piece with the pics of other early blues that Sue has taken. I presume the final tone/shade of blue achieved would have subtle variations from one piece to another, due to factors in the production process.
By the way, still looking forward to see a few pictures in another thread of the FISH!, would be good to see a picture of the whole piece apart from just the signature, just out of interest!
:sun:
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Sure, no worries Greg. Been a bit of a hectic few days work-wise. But will post on a new thread asap.
Have a link to a photo on my flickr account in the meantime - but it's not a great picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/64422401@N06/5871004090/in/set-72157626922047879
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Thanks
:)
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:cry:
My pics didn't come out showing all the different shades of blue.
I could see them all, sitting there on top of the washing machine - but the camera clearly couldn't.
The thing even had the cheek to flash unexpectedly at me, but it didn't improve any colour definitions.
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No worries Sue! I fight an ongoing losing battle with technology - and inanimate objects in general - myself. So I can totally empathise!
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mdina piece here has some similar traits in terms of colour hope im ok to post a picture here purely for comparison this is an odd sort of vase, but not quite the same as the above inside out vase colour?? :ho:
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Wow - a real-cobalt-almost-inside-out. :thup:
We know of one other almost-inside-out - this shape - but it's not cobalt.
That's another very scarce early piece!
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Shots of my two Almost Inside Out vases.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QLRUoVQGy-4/Sxj-29BhEZI/AAAAAAAACDM/GWm8HqNp1-A/s640/PB010071.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-crosusWChmw/TcVqC36RHMI/AAAAAAAAER0/eseXfwDm_VQ/P2260020.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7rofXAPbeVQ/Sxj-ud-ZV4I/AAAAAAAACC0/i1pZw0CNBK8/s640/PB010065.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NvIV2GpsOwU/Sxj-4sHZFbI/AAAAAAAACDQ/vhovG-zbP38/s640/PB010073.JPG)
Suzy xxx
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wow Sorry to go off the subject but are these almost inside outs just inside outs that havent quite worked?
Do your two have pontil's underneath?
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The shape of the body seems to be unique to this style of vase, together with the slighty raised rim. The oval shape doesn't seem to be used in the Inside Out vases.
The one on the right of the shots has a rough ground concave base, with the remnant of a pontil scar. The other has a polished concave base but a cruder finish to the rim. The maltese cross prunt on the right hand vase is made with glass the same blue as the body of the vase, The left one has a clear prunt.
Suzy xxx
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I didn't know you had two, Suzy! :spls: That makes three known, then. (Are either cobalt?)
:hi: Bradbury >:D (my bugbear here) - A pontil is the iron rod the glass is worked on - when it is broken off, it leaves a pontil mark.
We can only assume these "almost-inside-outs" were early experimental pieces.
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The one I got first, off ebay is not cobalt (left hand vase) but the one I bought at the National is (right hand vase). I can't recall if you were at that National and saw it or not.
Suzy xxx
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Was that the one where you had cleared Michelle Guzy's stand before Christine and I even got there?
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Oh yes - it was that one. It was get in there quick or go home empty handed!
Suzy xxx
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The colours of the picture of the vase on the right look very similar to mine (pictures posted at start of thread). Should there be much discernible difference between a manganese and cobalt blue? Not very well versed in these things...
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Goyjus - I'm quite happy to bring both of my Almosts to the National this November if you are taking your glorious Inside Out along for a 'Show and Tell'. It would be lovely to see it for real and compare the colours. It's fascinating to see the various hues next to each other.
Bradbury - Is there any chance of getting the 3 Almosts in one place at the same time at the National?
Suzy xxx
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Suzy - I will definitely try. Will post nearer the time to confirm. I've never been so would certainly be an interesting experience.
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:tof:I think i might well go this time i chickened out last year at the last moment was a bit skint but i will bring it along for a bit of ill show you mine if you show me yours lol as long as nobody looks at me strange for getting it out and salivating but i agree i think the event sounds the works and regretted missing it last year!
And maybe if i get there early i might get a bit glass before suzygpr dan ... :hi:
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Oh great - I love the National, total indulgence with lots of interesting glass and people.
Give me a prod beforehand as my memory is shockingly poor. Show and tell over a cuppa after scouring the stalls is always a fun part of the day. All the visitiing Harrisophiles will all go Ooooohhh! Aahhhh! Lovely! over a decent bit of Mdina, so it will be a treat for all of us to see the pieces in this thread.
Suzy xxx
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Just to add a little to this thread, interestingly, there was a Mdina chalice that recently sold, which was signed and dated "Mdina Glass 1974 Betty"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270965241542?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1202
The name reminded me of the piece at the beginning of this thread which was signed ''From Mike, Betty, Timothy and Jonathan''
Given the date of 1974 I guess ''Betty'' therefore wouldn't have been an alternative name for Elizabeth. Certainly interesting to see this name crop up twice, I guess Betty must have been an early employee who also occasionally helped out with tasks like signing etc.
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Many thanks for your post, Greg.
Not sure who the Betty is on the eBay chalice. But my piece has been confirmed as being by Michael Harris by several expert sources.
I would have thought it was highly unlikely that Michael Harris would have been signing a personal gift, along with his two sons, and some random 'Betty' that worked in the factory.
I wonder who the mystery 'Betty' can be..........................
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Michael Harris left Mdina in '71. ???
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But apparently Betty stayed on. :)
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No doubt in the slightest that it is a Harris piece. Just interesting that these are the only two pieces that I have ever seen marked 'Betty' and also the inclusion of the post Harris date on the chalice of 1974. So it would appear that 'Betty' was around from the early years, when your piece was produced and stayed on after the Harris's left, until at least 74.
Given that the name is virtually never seen, I did wonder if 'Betty' was perhaps an employee or family friend that worked in the shop or office and very occasionally signed the odd piece to help out during exceptionally busy periods.
Agreed, something with such a personal inscription would be unlikely to include the name of someone less known at the factory. However, I did wonder if 'Betty' may have been a close friend/empolyee who worked their, I would imagine it was quite a close knit place to work, especially in the early years. The Betty mystery continues......... :)
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Curiouser and curiouser... ;D
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Its all a bit of a mystery ???
Perhaps there's more than Betty or the date of 74 is incorrect, it certainly appears to read 74. I did send Ron a quick email about the wording on the Chalice and the date. I'll let you know if I hear back.
All a little puzzling. :)
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The first piece in this thread says
'with all our love Mike, Betty, Timothy and Jonathon'
that's a very personal inscription especially saying 'with all our love'. I would think that has to mean that Betty is Elisabeth doesn't it?
I wonder whether the chalice was a present for Betty, and inscribed years after it was made? Is the writing Michael Harris'?
m
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Betty is not an uncommon name for those born in the first half of the last century, which fits with the 1974 date. The first Betty is most probably Elizabeth Harris, given the combination of the names, but any thoughts about who the second Betty is are just pure speculation. Betty was probably a tourist who happened to watch them f doing the engraving and asked for her name on it. Note that it is not a dedication, just a name.
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Yes possibly, but Greg has said he is sure this is a Harris Chalice and it is dated 1974.
Which is odd given that the Harris's left Mdina in 1971.
m
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The chalice is the wrong shape for a Harris one; it has a "square" bowl rather than a bell shaped one
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As Christine says, definitely more of a Dobson influenced shape and Harris left in 72 not 71.
John
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Sorry, for any confusion I was agreeing that Anthony's piece at the a the start of the thread being definitely by Harris.
I just got an email from Ron, who kindly responded to my query about the Chalice, which seems to echo Christine's thoughts.
To paraphrase Ron's email. Indeed the Chalice is a modification of Michaels earlier design as produced by Joseph Said, so the style and date match.
It would appear that Elizabeth has not owned a Said goblet and also would have been back in the UK from 72. The only other thought is that coincidentally, the piece was purchased at the studio and asked by the purchaser to be signed by the 'Betty' in the their life.
Finally, Elizabeth Harris, was only known as either Liz or Elizabeth and Betty would not appear to have any reference to her.
Hope this helps.
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Thought I would pop this is in a separate thread.
So it would appear that the most likely outcome is that the 'Betty' wording on the chalice is probably more than likely a bit of a red herring in this case. In terms of Anthony's piece at the start of the thread, I would guess, although Elizabeth is not known as 'Betty', it is certainly much more likely in this case given the date and the personal inscription.
Unless a different mystery Betty materialises the above certainly seems the most plausible explanation.
:)
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Sometimes friends or family have pet names for people that they are not generally known by. My nephew calls me Chrissy, no one else does. Maybe Elizabeth Harris was "Betty" to whoever the dedication was to.
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And it's most definitely not in Michael Harris' handwriting.
I'm the only person who calles Michael "Michael" (apart from his Mum, I discovered later) - everybody else calls him Mike.
Here are some images of Michael Harris chalices - knooped by Papa Boffo.
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ah so, confusion over the wording in Greg's post - I couldn't work out how it could be a Michael Harris goblet but signed 1974 :-\
Sue your goblets are stunning! gorgeous colours.
m
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They're quite, quite different to the Said ones - and a lot bigger.
I just thought I'd shove some images into the public arena - given it seems that early chalices rarely make an appearance. ;D
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This piece instantly reminded me of this thread as soon as I laid eyes on it. :)
Interestingly, the base is completely concave where it has been ground.
Measures 4.5 inches wide and 2.75 inches tall.
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Wow, fabulous. The big green eyed envy monster is lurking here...
That would sit very nicely with my inside outs!
John
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As soon as I laid eyes on it I thought; "How similar (but far, far nicer) to the plain yellow sort of inside-out you have that came from my collection, John". The polished-out full round pontil mark is unusual for this sort of early period - this is cobalt blue, but the rest of it is spot on perfect, and I'm a very green-eyed monster too, Greg. Fabulous.
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Similar bubbly top to the vase at the start of this thread too Sue.
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:-[
I didn't re-read the whole thread - thanks for pointing me back and poking my memory, John. :-*
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Lovely piece of glass, Greg. Might be the angle but it looks like a slightly different shape to mine. Would be interesting to know if anyone has seen any other examples. I know I haven't. Thanks for posting.
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Thanks all :)
I was surprised to see a similar example to be honest Anthony, I wouldn't imagine there are too many examples around. I think the shape of your one is slightly more rounded in comparison.
;)