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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: ju1i3 on September 12, 2011, 07:56:53 PM

Title: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ju1i3 on September 12, 2011, 07:56:53 PM
I bought this piece on ebay recently. I don't have anything else with a star cut base. Is this design indicative of its date? It's 6 cm tall. (I think it's a leech pot although it was described as a "night light".)
thanks

Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Frank on September 12, 2011, 08:12:08 PM
1800s /1900s/2000s certainly, earlier not sure...
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ju1i3 on September 12, 2011, 08:59:56 PM
ta  :P
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Trebor on September 12, 2011, 09:48:04 PM
It says in the book by R. Wilkinson  .The heavy and sharply cut star of the 1780-1800 period, where the star goes right to the edge of a foot on such articles as jugs, vases, etc.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: KevinH on September 12, 2011, 10:53:30 PM
Other sources, such as Haanstra, Glass fact file a-z, state that star-cuts crossing in the centre and reaching out to the edge of a piece probably indicate post 1830.

Although not relevant for this bowl, it's worth noting that some authorities suggest different dates for types of star-cut on the feet of drinking glasses as opposed to other wares. So it's wise to check the context of any generalised source material regarding star-cuts ... just in case. :)
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Paul S. on September 13, 2011, 07:21:42 PM
certainly very difficult (with rare exceptions only) to find authenticated star cut bases prior to 1800 - then with the flood of cut glass during the Regency period etc. they're everywhere.   However, just wanted to say that I found the Wilkinson book a good read (if you're into older glass), and packed with more information on handles/feet/styles/glass making methods and cutting etc. than most similar sized volumes.   I'm not qualified to comment re dating of certain star bases, but the book isn't expensive, and although the pics. are a tad small, I would recommend to anyone wishing to delve back to the C18, C19 and early C20.     The full title is..........'The Hallmarks of Antique Glass'........Pub. by Richard Madley Ltd.   -   1968.
In the light of reference to 'Glass fact file a - z', would Ivo care to comment on this particular issue? :)
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Ivo on September 13, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
would Ivo care to comment on this particular issue? :)

it's a cupping jar.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Paul S. on September 13, 2011, 09:19:25 PM
don't know whether to think something was lost in translation (although I doubt it - Ivo speaks better English than many English people)  -  or maybe my request was inarticulate.         I think Ivo is jesting  -  so I will re-phrase my comment................."would Ivo care to comment on the matter of apparent contradiction of date of manufacture (as highlighted by Kevin)  -  "where the star goes right to the edge"  -  i.e. 1780 to 1800 (Wilkinson) or the suggested later period of post 1830 (Ivo) :)
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: KevinH on September 13, 2011, 11:21:06 PM
My apologies to all readers, especially to Ivo.

What Ivo said in his book was,
Quote
... and rays do not extend to the edge, a piece was probably made after c.1830.
My emphasis on the "do not" in that quote.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ju1i3 on September 14, 2011, 04:03:49 AM
Thanks all for the info.

I think that rim would make for a difficult vacuum seal and it's not like any cupping glass I've seen. Ivo, do you have a reference for that?
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Ivo on September 14, 2011, 05:52:04 AM
Around 150 but curently boxed up.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Paul S. on September 14, 2011, 08:21:59 AM
thanks Kevin :)
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ju1i3 on September 14, 2011, 09:18:58 AM
Hmm, interesting. I've been to every medical museum in London and have Guy Gaboriau's Outils de la santé et médecine d'autrefois and looked at Elisabeth Bennion's book in the library and I don't recall seeing any cupping jars like this one. If you ever get yours out would be interested to see photos. Do you have any boxed sets?
thanks
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Ivo on September 14, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
...
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 14, 2011, 09:57:50 AM
Definitely a leech pot.  :thup:
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ju1i3 on September 14, 2011, 09:59:44 AM
Thank you Ian :)

Ivo, those cupping glasses are completely different.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Ivo on September 14, 2011, 10:37:06 AM
..
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Ivo on September 14, 2011, 10:50:30 AM
..
Not a leech pot among them. These are all French - and the set of 44 did include the alcohol burner. Some date to the 1850s, some are as late as the 1920s. Sizes range from 4 to 9 cm - the latter were used for bloodletting rather than cupping. There is a wide range of mouths- most are folded outward (the simpelest way) or folded outward and angled. Some are also folded inward. The ones from the early 20th ct. tend to be mechanically made - like yoghurt pots. In another collection I have at least one star cut base, and several with a knop.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 14, 2011, 08:22:02 PM
You have a great collection of cupping cups Ivo, however the original item for this thread differs from them and was primarily for the transportation of leeches from the apothecary to the patient and therefore it is more commonly known as a leech jar/pot.  :thup:
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Ivo on September 14, 2011, 08:34:00 PM
at 6 cm i beg to differ.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 14, 2011, 08:49:44 PM
check out figure32 http://medicalantiques.com/medical/Scarifications_and_Bleeder_Medical_Antiques.htm . 6cm is plenty big enough to get a leech or two in.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Frank on September 14, 2011, 09:36:25 PM
New cupping jars shape/size is close the that of thread subject.

http://www.acuprime.com/en/products/cupping/glass-cupping/glass-cupping-jar-65mm

ditto

http://www.heliomed.com/ItemDetail.aspx?ItemGroup=cp-06-group

who said size is everything!
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 14, 2011, 09:49:38 PM
but not close enough!
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ju1i3 on September 15, 2011, 07:54:38 AM
The rims (and shapes) of leech pots and cupping glasses are quite different. You can see the similarity of all these leech pots, esp the flat rim for tying on a covering.

(sorry it's not the greatest pic but I'll try to re-arrange them and take another)
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Frank on September 15, 2011, 12:33:58 PM
Does anyone have proper references for these distinctions? They could just be assumptions.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 15, 2011, 12:59:49 PM
the knowledge and experience of those of us who collect leech pots alleviates the necessity for assumptions.  :thup:
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Ivo on September 15, 2011, 01:10:58 PM
so no references at all, then?
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 15, 2011, 01:36:07 PM
I understand that in this day and age nobody likes to accept anything unless there is a wealth of written material to back it up. Unfortunately I am divorced and when I left my home everything I possessed, all my reference books, my records and my collection was left behind (long story), yes there is a mountain of reference available to explain the difference between cupping cups and leech pots but at this moment in time, for my part, that knowledge is stored inside my head. Although I am at a loss to understand why it is difficult to accept the difference between the two when the photos by Ivo  and that from ju1i3 clearly show that difference.  :thup:
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ju1i3 on September 15, 2011, 01:59:06 PM
Here are some references I have.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Ivo on September 15, 2011, 03:28:22 PM
the problem is in definition and interpretation. A similar problem arises with rose bowls and with hyacinth vases - really in all shapes with a function. If collectors get hold of a lookalike they will insist it is one - even if the manufacturer does not acknowledge this, or even if technique rules it out. The rule of thumb is, the only genuine article is if the maker's catalogue identified it as one. A jam jar used as a bulb vase is still a jam jar, after all. I am sure that is why Frank asks questions: he has been through thousands of catalogues and never met a leech cup.  Another matter is that these were articles of low interest: pee pots, specimen jars, ink wells, seed storage pots, tubing, bulb vases, vials, varied, miscellaneous and sundry items all ended up on the last page of the catalogue. All makers had seed storage pots in the assortment - small round pots with a flange which allowed a muslin cloth to be tied over it. And in the section of counter jars - the tall footed and lidded jars for keeping live leeches is sometimes identified as such - but just as often equally suited for eggs or jelly beans. So you'll have a hard time convincing me these are what you will them to be.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: flying free on September 15, 2011, 03:47:27 PM
Are there not drawings in antique medical volumes regarding these items?  or cartoons demonstrating their use?
m
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Anik R on September 15, 2011, 03:51:22 PM
The cupping jars illustrated in Frederik Dekkers' Exercitationes practicae (1694) are very much like Ju1i3's item.
See here (http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/dekkers,-frederick-318-c-331055e9a4).

For a clearer illustration, see the 5th picture down here (http://collectmedicalantiques.com/gallery/transfusion-cupping-and-counterirritation).
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 15, 2011, 07:21:06 PM
These are all respected dealers and collectors of medical instruments, as you will see all leech pots have the distinctive flat rim.

http://medicalantiques.com/medical/Scarifications_and_Bleeder_Medical_Antiques.htm
http://collectmedicalantiques.com/gallery/leeches
http://curiousscience.com/20/Pharmacy/1/
http://www.phisick.com/a3ljb1.htm
http://www.vintagemedical.com/pages/1103-23.html
http://www.vintagemedical.com/pages/leechbowl.html
http://www.fleaglass.com/index.php?a=5&b=271&page=1
http://www.vanleestantiques.com/object.php?id=814
http://thegriffincollection.com/171.html
http://www.french-antique-dealers.com/item/43347/19th-c-blown-glass-leech-jar

this one sold on ebay is (imho) not a leech jar but a dry mustard pot with the lid missing.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Georgian-Wrythen-Glass-Leech-jar-/300575338800   :thup:
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Frank on September 15, 2011, 09:04:13 PM
Nicely found Anik.

Dealers, no matter how well respected will market their products according to current fashion and not always on the best research, maybe only a single reference source was used - those that do so usually go to great lengths to qualify their attributions with multiple references. Most of the researchers on this board are not interested in the currently used terms but the correct terms. The bulk of the trade defines its own terms and parameters much of which have been in regular use for so many years and can often be traced back to a single author that has just been slavishly repeated from book to book over the years. Only in the last 20 years or so have academic standards changed in glass research and many of the so-called 'classic' volumes trashed as a result. Unfortunately many collectors do not break ground and limit their studies to a few books so they two are not reliable sources. Ivo is certainly not such a collector and breaks much new ground in glass knowledge.

It is also a fact that almost every form of object can be found in a vast array of different designs - hence there are a lot of designers in the world.

Ivo said it, only the manufacturers intended use of a design is the correct one. As we have seen contemporary versions of these pieces still come in a variety of shapes from a wide range of makers including similar to that shown in this thread.

I may well have cupping jars in my own catalogue collection but these are still not accessible. I can come back to this in a year or two by which time I hope to be back to working on the catalogues.
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 16, 2011, 07:35:47 AM
I am sorry but I find this whole matter insulting, Ivo and Frank listen to no one, my collection was built up over 15years my knowledge of glass extends to 25 years but according to you two what I have been collecting is not what I know it is, the knowledge I have I do not really have. I have tried to share my experience with other members many times in the past only for that information to be dismissed by these same two. I accept that Ivo and Frank do have a vast knowledge between them but on everything? I do not think so. If this rant gets me thrown off the site so be it. One last shot, the photos shown by Ivo ARE cupping cups and NOTHING like the leech pots that the rest of the world is happy to accept as leech pots. I am happy with my knowledge and luckily do not need Frank and Ivo's approval.  :thup:
Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
Post by: Frank on September 16, 2011, 02:14:35 PM
Sorry you feel that way but you are perhaps missing the point.

Frank and Ivo listen to everyone, of course I would be the first to agree that both of us are given to short replies which are often misunderstood. A question of time really.

It is necessary to keep an open mind to progress knowledge. As in every field anyone challenging the status-quo is often regarded with fear, distrust or contempt. But this board has collectively challenged many such established views and proven new truths regardless of the discomfort that may be caused to cherished tradition. New and proven knowledge generally enhances collecting even if it causes waves in values as the knowledge is spread. The benefit of operating collaborative public research is that it allows for a much wider range of input and examples than one person research and any proven conclusions get rapidly integrated into the collecting world.
 
In this particular issue;

  • 1. Cupping jars and Leech jars are popular collectables that seem to have become defined by the collecting world in a particular manner based solely on shape.
  • 2. There appears to be no recent and definitive research in the subject.
  • 3. A cursory search of cupping jars which are still in common usage shows that there are a substantial variation of shape including spread/flared lip which is stated as being an aid to cleaning/drying.
  • 4. One 17th century source shows the type now raising controversy.
  • 5. Leach carriers are mostly illustrated with integral closures, the small glass jars with spread/flared rims being assumed generally to be leech carriers being an exception! An exception that affects practicality is an instant red flag.
  • a. Having to tie on a cover would be very inconvenient when a simple integral closure would be so simple to provide.
  • b. Perhaps in years gone by patients were less squeamish but unlike most of the other leech carriers a glass jar would not conceal the creatures from the patient prior to their use.
  • c. Lesser point, but I have seen no examples with a carrying case, most glass medical jars of specialised function intended for portability are often provided with such and these have remained.

  • Conclusion.

    The established view of the collecting market for Cupping/Leech jars has been opened to question and thus requires further research to determine if the established view is correct or incorrect. The source of shape based identification appears to be unknown at present.

    No-one is being dismissed.
    Title: Re: when do star cut bases date from?
    Post by: Ivo on September 16, 2011, 03:28:17 PM
    I agree to that and am sorry you take the question of reference as an attack on your collection. Not intended and not necessary.

    We have plenty of reference of cupping jars; these feature in many general glass catalogues such as Meisenthal and  Holmegaard all through the 19th century. Cupping jars come in many shapes and forms, and had many uses in the world of pharmacy and doctoring. There were industries (Oullins in Lyon for instance) producing these simple forms for third parties: pharmaceutical wholesellers, doctor's outfitters etc. As ventouses are hardly ever marked, proving a manufacture is mostly impossible.

    Leech jars come in many forms, both pottery and glass. The essence is these are tall, footed, have a ball shaped bowl to foil any escape attempt and have a flat rim.

    As for transport, leeches were transported in lidded pewter containers as per http://www.sangsue.ch/Dateien/sangsue_ordre_pharmacien.pdf which also gives some wriggly statistics.

    And as for applicators, these were various glass items with a narrow neck allowing the precise positioning of the suckers. Ventouses were used with a piece of cardboard with holes in it. Three leeches in a ventouse were applied, a few drops of wine would entice them to flee to the cardboard with the exposed skin and yum yum bite the host. The ventouse would then be taken away. For single application a glass tube would be used.

    Nowhere in the story, and nowhere in the medical catalogues can flanged "leech pots" be found.  There are pots much like it for packaging anchovies, for various preserves or for dry good storage. But none mention leeches specifically.

    There we have the dilemma. And that is why we would like to see some reference that these are specifically for leeches. Their similarity in shape to leech jars is inconclusive.

    curious as ever.

    Ivo