Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: svazzo on September 17, 2011, 12:31:30 AM
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Hello Everyone,
Recently purchased this piece, a very high iridescent Pitcher or Ewer with a KB label.
The label itself and the company imported glass from Italy, but this piece does not look like it is to me.
It looks very much like a Tiffany Favrile piece, of which I have seen many paperweights and small bowls in the same desoration.
Would anyone know if this could be a Tiffany piece?
Below is a link to 2 paperweights in the same design, one of which is signed by Tiffany, the other is not.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9711673 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9711673)
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thank you in advance! and have a great weekend everyone!
Javier
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Javier, there is a ewer of this design but with different decoration in the 1969 KB catalog. The ewer showed in the catalog is called "vasa murrina" for some reason. It is burnt orange with silver. The one in the catalog is 9.5" tall and pictured with many other things I know are Murano glass. Your ewer does not strike me as Tiffany at all. I do like yours better than the one in the KB catalog.
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Hi TxSilver,
Thanks for the reply.
I do not own any catalogs by the company, but have owned many Fratelli Toso (attributed) pieces with their labels, including ewers and cruets.
This design is nothing like those I have seen before, or owned myself.
Meaning the opal handle, the high Iridescence, spot design.
None of them match what I have seen before.
I do own some Toso Iridescent pieces, and the way the surface is treated is very different as well.
I remembered seeing those paperweights and once I got the Ewer I searched them out again and saw they were actually signed Tiffany.
They have the same "coin dot" design (of course in the ewer, since it is hollow the spots are stretched out).
Would you know what other types of things the company sold in their US galleries?
Is everything in the catalog from Italy?
Usually even if a piece is done in a design I have not seen before, there are at least 2 or 3 things that will tell me who made it.
On this one, I am really stumped, specially with the label which says "Made in Italy".
If I had seen this piece without a label, I would have thought American Studio on first impression.
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Just received my new what I have been waiting for!
Same as the Tiffany Iridescent ones on the link, and it does have the KB Label!!!
There is no signature underneath, but you can see they are the same.
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http://www.fossilfly.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1839 (http://www.fossilfly.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1839)
Have a look here.
Go to the bottom post could lead you to what you are after.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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Javier wants confirmation of who made his ewer, not who imported it Simon. ;) Can we see the signature on the paperweight Javier please
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Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies.
The paperweight i just received does not have a signature, but has the KB label on it.
If you see the link I posted from LiveAuctioneers, they have 2 paperweights, 1 with a signature and another without, but both are the exact same ones (same as mine as well).
"PAIR OF TIFFANY PAPERWEIGHTS: Amber color base with green coin dot decoration. Impressed Tiffany Favrile Glass Registered Trademark on one."
Those were the first ones I saw with the iridescent spot design my Ewer has and what led me to think it was a Tiffany piece.
The paperweight I posted photos of is one I found at auction, and it just happened to also have the KB label the Ewer has.
I was trying to find a link between Tiffany Favrile and KB Imports.
Seems this paperweight is the link I was looking for, but still would really like to know 100% if "Tiffany Favrile" lend their items to sell at the KB galleries.
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Javier wants confirmation of who made his ewer, not who imported it Simon. ;) Can we see the signature on the paperweight Javier please
I posted it in the hope it could lead them in the correct direction, better than nothing.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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KB label is
1951 data (Glass-study.com) -
KOSCHERAK BROS., INC., 129 Fifth Avenue (3), GR 7-7733. F. E. Koscherak, president; Morris Blau, sales manager.
Imports from England, Italy, France and Germany in china, glass, pottery.
category: Fancies - represented in Chicago by: W. C. Owens, Inc., 1520 Merchandise Mart.
Current web data -
Koscherak Brothers Inc - Giftwares (Wholesale)
448 W 16th St, New York, New York 10011
(212) 627-2050
If they still exist a phone call may answer the puzzle.
This pottery mark proves that KB was NY http://www.collectorscircle.com/bohemian/Porcelain-2/porcelain/marks/gs004Koscherak-Mark-1.jpg
A Jack Badash of Javit glass fame was employed as a shipping clerk at KB in 1936 before starting his glassworks. Pushing date back further in time.
It is likely related also to Austrian Bohemia Koscherack Bottling Works that existed up to around 1925 and then reappear as Koscherak Siphon Bottle Works, Hoboken, New Jersey importing soda siphons from Austria.... dating coincidences maybe but a strong suggestion that this was at least a family connection. So KB NY probably came into existence in the 1925-36 period perhaps taking advantage of the depression?
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Just played a hunch and got a part answer for you.
This 1948 advert on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140593298025+
Date KB to founded in 1887, so dash above dating thoughts!!! But I still suggest family connections.
The ad says more about their ranges and include Venetian glass & AMERICAN POTTERY and GLASSWARE but why would they put the Made in Italy label on? They had other label designs for Italy without KB too.
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Hello Frank,
Thank you very much for all that information!
You are right, i read it over and on the bottom of the ad it does say "American Pottery and Glassware".
Just like you, I am wondering why they would not have a different label for USA made items.
At least there is no doubt about them carrying American made products.
Now I'll try and call NY on Monday and see if someone picks up! :)
Thanks again Frank, have a great weekend!
Javier
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I guess they were just sloppy with labels. It is not uncommon. Good luck with the phone call.
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First of all Tiffany has been resurrected as Tiffany & Co. not to be confused with Tiffany Studios & they import glass. Secondly don't place alot of confidence in attributions by LiveAuctioneers.
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Hello Ohio,
Personally I know nothing regarding Tiffany, Tiffany & Co. or Tiffany Studios.
My knowledge is in Italian glass, which is why I purchased the Ewer in the first place.
I own many Italian pieces with the KB label, that are documented to Italian glass makers.
This particular piece was an odd item, and I did not see it as Italian once it arrived at my home. I was reminded of the paperweights on LiveAuctioneers that i had seen a while back.
The only reason this topic is discussing my piece as maybe a Tiffany Favrile is because of the signature on 1 of the paperweights on the LiveAuctioneers link.
"Impressed Tiffany Favrile Glass Registered Trademark" on 1 of the paperweights.
If you look at it, they have a photograph of the mark.
I am trying to, with the help of everyone here, to get an answer to a question.
Did Koscherak Brothers Inc. also sell "Tiffany Favrile" or any Tiffany pieces in their galleries?
It seems you are knowledgeable about Tiffany items.
Would you happen to know the answer to our question?
Are you suggesting the signature on the LiveAuctioneers link is fake?
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Javier, I think it important to start with the things you know about the ewer. Glassmakers borrow techniques from each other all the time because they like the outcome. So the appearance alone can provide a hint, but it is not definitive. You do know that the ewer has a KB, Made in Italy label, and that a 9.5" ewer with this design and a different decor is in the 1969 catalog. KB is a company that sold mainly 1st and 2nd shelf pieces.They concentrated on selling affordable glass to the general population of the US. I have seen three labels used by KB, but I do not know the timeline for the different labels. I do know that the label you have on your ewer was the one used in the 1960s, but I don't know when they began to use the label.
How tall is your ewer? Italian glass designs were often made with different decors. And often paperweights were made for KB that had the same decor. It would be nice if it turned out to be Tiffany, but the information on the label points another direction. I would look in that direction before considering Tiffany Studios.
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Hi Anita,
I understand your view, but I have to disagree.
This all started with the Ewer, but the information we have now is on the paperweights.
Lets take the Ewer out of the equation right now, since I have not seen another like it to compare.
We have on the other hand, seen more than 1 paperweight.
With Franks information we know that Koscherak Brothers Inc. also carried "American Pottery and Glassware."
The paperweights, one of which is signed "Impressed Tiffany Favrile Glass Registered Trademark".
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9711673 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9711673)
Since I have looked on the internet, and found 2 others also signed.
http://www.richardcfreyfinearts.com/tiffany.html (http://www.richardcfreyfinearts.com/tiffany.html)
Signed: LCT Favrile (Monogram)
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5197081 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5197081)
Signed L.C.T. Favrile
On the LiveAuctioneers link, 1 is signed and the other is not (same paperweight and same lot).
The paperweight I just purchased is not signed, but is does have the KB label.
It is exact as the ones mentioned before.
So we have a connection between the design of the paperweights, signatures and now a label to the Koscherak Brothers.
Now, the Ewer has the same design and the same label as the paperweight, so they were sold at the same company, Koscherak Brothers Inc.
You mean to tell me there is no connection between them?
I have handled many iridescent pieces from Italian makers before (specially Fratelli Toso), but none like this pieces.
The way they are made is very different to any I own or have owned in the past.
"They concentrated on selling affordable glass to the general population of the US"
Ok, so why would they not sell an affordable "Tiffany Favrile" line made just for Koscherak Brothers Inc. to match their Italian shapes (in regards to the Ewer).
That is certainly a possibility.
This all started because the Ewer was not something I considered Italian, even though it had the KB Italy label on it.
I do not mean to sound cocky by any means, but I have handled thousands of Murano pieces personally, and seen probably hundreds of thousands of photos on the internet, and having this piece in my hands it did not feel Italian at all. Like i mentioned when I first started this topic, if the piece did not have the KB Italy label I would not have thought it was Italian in the first place.
That made me look into the paperweights which I had seen before, that turned out to be "Impressed Tiffany Favrile Glass Registered Trademark".
I am not saying my pieces are 100% Tiffany Favrile, yet! lol. That is why we are researching and talking about this.
But I cannot say, ok the Ewer has an Italian label so it is Italian. If I had I would not have found the paperweights and started this whole thing.
It is the same as when I see a piece of Murano glass that I know in my heart it is from a certain maker, but has another label on it or attribution.
For example, when i first started selling on Ebay I kept seeing Barovier pieces attributed to Fratelli Toso by the sellers because of the same KB label we are now talking about.
(KB Labels) Koscherak Brothers became a synonym to Fratelli Toso. Seemed that no one wanted to deviate, just because of the label and the previous atributions. I knew that the designs on those particular pieces could not have been made by Fratelli Toso, but Barovier & Toso. Doing research and buying books I confirmed that I was right. If I had not put in question the design of the pieces themselves, regardless of labels and attributions, I would be selling Barovier Graffito and Cordonato D' Oro pieces as Fratelli Toso to this day.
My gut tells me this is not Italian. That is all I can say. If I am wrong then I am wrong, and we had a good discussion and found out some great new information in the process.
But I like to trust my gut feelings.
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By the way Anita,
On a totally unrelated topic, I was so sad to see you sold the Horse on your website :(
That was a nice one.
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KB did import many Fratelli Toso pieces, but they imported from other Murano makers as well. I'm afraid that one of the unintentional outcomes of Pina's books were that people linked KB and FT, resulting in a lot of misattributions. It is possible that someone put a wrong sticker on your ewer, but I tend to be very conservative when it comes to attributions. Talented glassmakers can copy the work of others. For example, Tiffany Studios sued Steuben for copying its Favrile technique to create its on line.
It will be interesting to find out who did make your ewer and pwt. I wish that I had more KB catalogs, but there are only the two that do not have this decor.
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"KB did import many Fratelli Toso pieces, but they imported from other Murano makers as well"
Yes, very true, but when I started on Ebay I did not know about import companies, makers or anything like that.
Previously I was only collecting "Art Glass" that all happened to be Italian. Some had labels, some not. I was just drawn to it without knowing. Once I got on the Internet and later Ebay did I begin to know the makers of my pieces.
My point being, if I had not doubted the attributions first presented to me by other sellers or like you mentioned Leslie Piña books as an example, I would not have started researching the actual techniques and designs on my own.
Only then was I able to find out for myself that yes, KB did import many different Italian makers.
Now we know they also carried American made items in their galleries thanks to Frank's research.
Personally I did not know that before, but this Ewer made me think it could be possible.
"It is possible that someone put a wrong sticker on your ewer... "
Like Frank mentioned earlier, yes that could be the case. Maybe this pieces were not meant to have the Italy label on them in the first place.
As someone who worked in the back of a store, as a stock manager, I know how labels can be put on the wrong pieces very easily.
One thing though, they were meant to be in the back of that store one way or another.
"... but I tend to be very conservative when it comes to attributions"
I do not think I mentioned the pieces are 100% Tiffany Favrile yet. I am hoping though :)
Hopefully Monday I will be able to talk with someone at the end of that phone number.
I will certainly let you all know!
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Look the following URL http://www.tiffanyfakes.com/the_fakes_10.htm
under CLARSAUCTION 1/2 way down on the left hand side. Is this ewer somewhat similar to the one you have? Cannot tell for certain.
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Oh, good catch, Ken! Great glass sleuth work. I trust the Tiffany Fakes site. I wish they had written more about it. My guess from Javier's label is that it is made in Italy for KB and maybe some other import companies.
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Anita truth be known the link was forwarded to me by another party & left it to my judgement whether or not to post it so I'm not the sleuth, however it does seem to demonstrate the KB Murano imports are being touted as the work of other well known companies, in this case American art glass so in that regard it might have value. Ken
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Current web data -
Koscherak Brothers Inc - Giftwares (Wholesale)
448 W 16th St, New York, New York 10011
(212) 627-2050
Hi Frank,
I called today and found out that number is a Fax number :(
Found this other # for them (212) 391-2272, but it says it is disconnected.
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Anita truth be known the link was forwarded to me by another party & left it to my judgement whether or not to post it so I'm not the sleuth, however it does seem to demonstrate the KB Murano imports are being touted as the work of other well known companies, in this case American art glass so in that regard it might have value. Ken
Hi Ken,
The photo shown on the site does look like my Ewer.
However, I was not sold the piece or the paperweight as Tiffany pieces.
Still we have the question of what company or maker did in fact make this items for KB.
I personally do not think they are Italian, but American.
And what company sold the Tiffany Favrile signed paperweights with the same decoration as mine that I provided the links for?
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This one is bizarre, has anyone got an image of the mark on the weight?
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Hi Frank,
Are you guys able to see the LiveAuctioneer link with the photos?
The last photo of the paperweights shows the mark.
Looks like a very ornate and I would think very hard to reproduce embossed mark.
The other 2 links, only have the paperweight image, not the close up of the marks.
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SVAZZO having been involved with U.S. glass for 38 years I've not run across anything like your ewer attributed to any U.S. manufacturer. I will add one disclaimer though & that involves a possible private order with a small studio firm which would be next to impossible to confirm or deny for that matter. I even rule out the larger well known hand shops such as Fenton, Blenko & Pilgrim & if Dr. Measell pops in he can either confirm or correct me. It would have to have been one of the hundreds (most long gone these days) of private mom & pop studio operations that operated largely in the early 70's until the late 90's when most disappeared. Personally it screams Murano to me, but thats only my opinion. On the paperweights I honestly do not know except to say that on page 2 of the Tiffany Fakes website 1/2 way down the page, right hand size under the name "OAS3" appears a paperweight not unlike the one shown & in the opinion of the website Tiffany did not make paperweights like these and they come from a reproduction house. Whether or not this is correct I don't know, but this is the trusted website for Tiffany fakes. Ken
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Hi Ken,
Has the signature that is shown on the LiveAuctioneers website been documented as a Tiffany Favrile stamp?
No one has mentioned anything yet about that signature/stamp.
"Personally it screams Murano to me, but thats only my opinion"
As someone who has collected Murano items for years, they do not say Murano to me.
That is the enigma for me.
Javier
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Ken, I agree with you. I don't mean to be repetitive, but talented glassmakers can imitate the work of another. My personal feeling is that it was made in the late 1960s in Murano for KB, very likely by Fratelli Toso. The reason I say the latter is because of the ewer of this shape in the KB catalog that is shown with other pieces of glass that I know are FT. FT had many talented glassmakers, so it would be my first guess based on what we know about the ewer.
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Hi Anita,
I have to disagree again with the Fratelli Toso reference.
As you have said yourself, many makers can reproduce this items and KB imported many Italian makers (if we go by it being Italian in the first place).
The "ewer" shape, and the "paperweight" shapes are almost universal.
You have to look at the actual design of the piece. "Design" as in the texture, glass techniques used, the feel of it, etc.
Murano makers did not do much Aurene/Mirrored/Iridescent glass.
The Iridescent pieces I have handled by Fratelli Toso, Seguso, Barovier and more, do not have the same feel or look as this 2 pieces have.
That is why I am questioning them as Italian items.
I would like to know at least the answer to my last question.
Does the Signature on the LiveAuctioneer link been documented as a "Tiffany Favrile" stamp?
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On the paperweights I honestly do not know except to say that on page 2 of the Tiffany Fakes website 1/2 way down the page, right hand size under the name "OAS3" appears a paperweight not unlike the one shown & in the opinion of the website Tiffany did not make paperweights like these and they come from a reproduction house.
Yes, a similar paperweight to mine is on there, bit does not show the signature it was supposed to have.
The other paperweights I saw on the site have hand scribed "drilled" signatures.
Anyone can write that name in, but not many people would be able to create a Logo, and emboss a signature like that to the bottom of paperweight.
Can you just tell me that yes you have seen the signature on the site?
I have not heard from any of you that you have actually seen that signature or have knowledge that the Tiffany Favrile stamp shown is real or fake.
None of your comments address that there is a signature on that 1 paperweight.
I am not being rude, just really want to know why that has not been addressed at all?
"Tiffany Favrile Glass Registered Trademark"
Is that a real signature?
Frank - Please delete the photo if needed, but seems I needed to post it.
It seems very complex for anyone to just decided to put it on a paperweight.
[Mod (not Frank!): Auction image removed and replaced with direct link.]
http://p1.la-img.com/196/26011/9711673_4_l.jpg
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The mark is shown in Hartmann and dates from 1892 on labels. As he only goes up to c1950 that means little. Perhaps contact the Tiffany fakes site with link to that mark. They do say that they have made mistakes.
It is possible to fake such a mark during manufacture but it would be very expensive to make the die and it IS a well made die, surely a faker would have used it on every weight! Whereas if it is genuine it is not surprising that it was not used on every piece. Would FT in Italy have done such a mark, unlikely! It would be impossible to make that mark on a finished weight.
More and more intriguing.
Another possibility just to cover angles, the marked weight is genuine, the other a copy.
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Hi Frank,
Exactly! There is no Italian maker that would made a stamp signature like that.
You see acid signed pieces by Italian makers, but no cut out die stamps.
It is far too complex for a faker to use it once and place it on the weight after the fact.
That just does not make sense.
I have been waiting for someone to mention the signature, but no one has.
And that is a huge part of the puzzle.
Maybe Ken can forward that link to someone who knows about Tiffany signatures.
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You can contact them yourself, email address is on the page or front http://www.tiffanyfakes.com/index.htm
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"Another possibility just to cover angles, the marked weight is genuine, the other a copy."
Still we are left with the question, what company would have been contracted to do them for KB?
If the paperweight is a High End piece with a rare signature, and KB wanted to sell a lower end line of the same design, would they contact Tiffany to make the pieces for them?
Still we have the same question... Where "Tiffany Favrile" pieces sold at KB? even if they were lower end mass produced items that could not be signed by Tiffany since they were now the "property of Koscherak Brothers".
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"You can contact them yourself"
Hi Frank,
Every time I click on the "Contact Us" link a window pops up on my computer saying I need to register a "Mail" program which I do not know what it is, and I would rather not install whatever it is on my computer. I do not see an actual email written on the site.
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SVAZZO:
Simply email them at the address below:
info@tiffanyfakes.com
As a backup you can also email Phillip Chasen who is a Tiffany expert. Matter of fact you might ask if he would look at the pics of you ewer if you sent them to him for an opinion.
philipc@chasenantiques.com
Bye the way if you think this KB question is intriguing, well I'm going to try to have a lady I know join in as she uncovered a rather confusing (to me anyway) U.S. patent that involves a KB rep & a U.S. glass company...maybe someone can figure this one out. Ken
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A couple of other points to consider:
1. This eBay item (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tiffany-Paperweight-Leonardo-Collection-/200636431919) (ended 5 Aug 2011) was for a "Tiffany Paperweight by the Leonardo Collection". We know from many GMB threads that "The Leonardo Collection" is not a maker but a trading name used by a UK importer, sourcing many items from Asia and maybe elsewhere (and has done so for many years). Now, I lnow that the eBay weight is nothing like the "favrile-like" weight and ewer that have been discussed here, but it might be a clue to where at least some tiffany-looking pieces are coming from.
2. An alternative reference source is the Haworth Art Gallery at Accrington, Lancashire, England, which houses one of the world's best collections of Tiffany items. They may be able to comment postively on whether paperweights (or ewers) of the type discussed were really made at Tiffany. They were very helpful to me when I wrote to them (via snail mail) some years ago about a moulded (!!) iridescent vase I have with a very good looking, but fake, "L. C. Tiffany favrile" signature. One web page with their contact details is here (http://www.visitlancashire.com/site/things-to-do/search/haworth-art-gallery-tiffany-glass-p7262#productlist=/site/things-to-do/search/haworth-art-gallery-tiffany-glass-p7262&proxprodtype=acco).
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Hi KevinH.
I do not think that the maker of this paperweight, "Tiffany Paperweight by the Leonardo Collection", meant to imply the piece was made by Tiffany, but you can see form the decoration on the weight itself, it most likely is an homage to Tiffany as a NY institution. As you can see they have the Empire State building, blue Tiffany box, etc.
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I found an article about LC Tiffany and it does show the mark for Tiffany Glass and Decorating Company; http://www.treadwaygallery.com/tiffanyexhibit/exhibit.html (http://www.treadwaygallery.com/tiffanyexhibit/exhibit.html) .
Janice
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I'll preface this with the fact that I know nearly nada about Tiffany. I've read a couple places now that the company was only called Tiffany Glass & Decorating Company from 1892-1902; how does that fit with the KB label? To me the "Favrile" part of the stamp shown in the pwt. auction isn't very clear, and in general it is slightly different from the trademark, having the additional (extraneous) "o" in the C. Considering the money to be made through fakes I wouldn't be surprised if someone made their own fake stamp - it wouldn't be that hard to etch one. Has anyone seen, or seen mention of, a genuine stamped Tiffany mark?
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Hello Janice,
Thank you very much for finding that article.
Guess there would not be any information out there about the mark being used sporadically on certain pieces?
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... how does that fit with the KB label?...
Hi Kristi,
That is what we are trying to figure out.
My paperweight does have the KB label, but the one with the signature does not.
Javier
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It is not a tough weight to copy by any means, but it does need to be established if the weight is genuine. I disagree that making the die is cheap, cheap dies = low definition, not that one. The value of the weight is not high enough to pay for it.
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I meant, how does that fit timewise with the KB label. It the pwts really are identical (as far as handmade glass goes), and the KB label more recent than 1902 (as seems likely), that would support the idea that the impressed mark on the one in the auction is fake, which IMHO is probable since it's not a match to the real mark and no one has been able to find other evidence of any genuine stamped mark on Tiffany glass.
Personally, I would be surprised if the ewer in question were Tiffany Favrile...or has that already been established?
Frank - why do you think it would be hard to make a stamp like that? All they've done is etch the metal. To me it doesn't look very clear and crisp anyway - you can't even make out the "Favrile." And if that bumps the selling price from $20 to $200 and you're selling 1000 of them, it's worth it!
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.. having the additional (extraneous) "o" in the C. ...
Those are stamping artefacts, not part of the stamp.
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The O perfectly formed and centered in the C? The other two dots clearly are, but that looks like it's part of the stamp to me. And look at "GLASS" - the first letter looks like a C, especially when compared with the G in "registered."
I dunno, maybe Tiffany was experimenting with the stamp, not very successfully, and that's why we never hear of them. (A die would be used in a press - seems more likely to be a stamp, don't you think?)
Why would a stamp have those dots anyway?
Huh, according to http://www2.tbo.com/lifestyles/life/2011/jul/10/BANEWSO8-paperweights-are-not-tiffany-ar-242720/ (http://www2.tbo.com/lifestyles/life/2011/jul/10/BANEWSO8-paperweights-are-not-tiffany-ar-242720/), "However, traditional paperweights in Favrile glass apparently were not produced."
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And really, let's be honest. LC Tiffany was into design, experimentation, fine craftsmanship. The spotted paperweights show none of those things. There's not even a layer of clear on top, as far as I can tell, which is a common aspect of his many paperweight vases made around 1900. There are fine parallel streaks encircling the spotty ones, left by the maker as he formed it in newspaper or whatever. These just don't have the quality of Tiffany. That's my 2 cents! ;)
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I'll preface this with the fact that I know nearly nada about Tiffany.
Hello Kristi,
Please do not take this the wrong way, it is being said in jest.
I thought you knew nada about Tiffany?
Well, in regards to the iridescence.
I am very surprised you think once the iridescent surface is crated that they would put a clear coat on top.
That is the purpose of that treated surface, to be able to create a rainbow of colors once the light hits the objects.
Putting a layer of clear defeats that purpose of it. At least in my experience with Italian glass, pieces with Iridescent surfaces do not have a clear coat over them.
And from what I have seen personally, Tiffany pieces would not be coated with an extra layer of clear.
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Putting a layer of clear defeats that purpose of it.
Cant agree with you there Richard Golding often puts on an iridescent layer and then cases it with clear glass. The effect is mesmerising. Many glass blowers use that method.
I have to agree with krsilber it doesn't have the quality or design qualities of Tiffany.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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Hi Mike,
I personally have not seen Tiffany pieces with a clear glass over them when the surface is iridescent.
Not that I am an expert in the matter by any means (i have only seen a handful of pieces), but also I am talking with my experience with Italian glass.
There is no doubt that if another maker/artist wants to create a piece that way, it can be done.
I do own 2 modern paperweights done that way, but they are not Tiffany or Italian.
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I was mearly pointing out that after you saying. "Putting a layer of clear defeats that purpose of it"
was not the case and in fact many glass blowers around the world do this with a highly desirable effect. I was not saying that Tiffany had or had not used this process.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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Hi Mike,
Understood, but I was talking about my experience with Italian glass and the few pieces of Tiffany I have been able to see first hand.
If those items were cased over with clear glass, the effect and look would be negated. That is not the aesthetics they are going for in those particular designs. That was my point.
I think if we go into generalities about all glass and all glass artists, we really wont get anywhere.
We will only get more questions that are not at the root of the discussion.
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We are going round in circles so at this point I'm getting off the roundabout.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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Coming back in again, rather confused. The stamped paperweight is not yours, Javier, is that correct? And this stamped one was being sold with one that had no stamp, but looked similar, right? And you have a KB ewer and a KB paperweight made in Italy. I am having to sort this out again.
The ewer does not look like Tiffany to me. I don't own Tiffany, but I look at it a good bit. The idea of the ewer being Tiffany would have never occurred to me. We do have someone knowledgeable with Tiffany on Facebook -- Reyne Haines Hersch. She "hosts" the Art Glass Discussion Group. If you haven't joined the group, you can do it with a simple "like." If you post pictures and links, she may be able to help.
I keep trying to turn the ewer and paperweight into "maybe Tiffany" in my mind, but I haven't been able to convince myself. It would be nice if they were, but all the hard data say that they aren't. The stamped paperweight, IMO, is irrelevant because glass techniques can be copied and there is more than one talented gaffers in the world.
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The O perfectly formed and centered in the C? The other two dots clearly are, but that looks like it's part of the stamp to me.
Why would a stamp have those dots anyway?
The glass is soft and changes shape as you remove the stamp, particularly on flat area, naturally circular and of course operfectly so, you can see similar artefacts in other areas of the stamp.
Javier did you mail the Tiffany fake experts discussed earlier?
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"I thought you knew nada about Tiffany?" Hee hee, well, um...I'm a quick learner?
I have as a result of this discussion (for some reason it captured my interest) spent a few hours looking into the matter, but it's true, I don't have much experience with Tiffany. I do have a fairly strong knowledge of and interest in glass manufacture, though, and that helps.
When talking about a layer of clear, I was specifically talking about Tiffany "paperweight vases," called that because the process is similar to making paperweights. From http://www.studiosoft.it/antiquetiffany.htm (elsewhere I've read the same thing):
"...Some items decorated in this manner were cased with a layer of clear glass. Such pieces are sometimes called Tiffany paperweight glass. Aquamarine glass, made in much the same way, was embedded with marine decoration, wavy fronds of green with fishes or pebbles, in heavy green glass intended to simulate the sea."
Some of these are favrile, some aren't. Even if on the outside, the iridescence may be subtle enough that it doesn't obscure the design underneath.
One thing I've read is that Tiffany made their iridescent glass differently from others (though I'm sure others have used Tiffany's method by now). They incorporated metal oxides into the glass which colored the glass itself, but also reacted with a fine spray of tin oxide, which when reheated brought out the iridescence. This is opposed to spraying multiple metal oxides on the outside to create the effect. The result of Tiffany's method would be different iridescence depending on the color beneath. (There are mixed descriptions on the 'net, but I found a Google book called Fakebusters II: Scientific detection of fakery in art and philately that describes the chemical difference in the outer and base layers between Loetz and Tiffany.)
Let's not forget the little blurb saying Tiffany didn't make Favrile paperweights - a statement supported by a Google which revealed only the questionable spotty type we've seen already, and one in a museum store that wasn't even made by Tiffany. Plus a lot of paperweight vases.
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Looks familiar (http://www.prices4antiques.com/decorative-accessories/paperweights/Paperweight-Tiffany-LC-Favrile-Spots-3-inch-C249520.htm) (Since 1999, the web's first choice for antiques research) Here is one that should be easier to identify for the p/w folks Tiffany paperweight (http://www.prices4antiques.com/mcd/seodetail.asp?itemID=D9905530&resultstype=past). The site lists some 30 Tiffany weights but not all glass.
Worthpoint (http://www.worthpoint.com/?s=tiffany+paperweight&metasearch=yes&metasearch_cats%5B%5D=news&metasearch_cats%5B%5D=articles&metasearch_cats%5B%5D=multimedia&metasearch_cats%5B%5D=classifieds&metasearch_cats%5B%5D=profiles&metasearch_cats%5B%5D=price_guide&metasearch_cats%5B%5D=upcoming_auctions) also list 3 other Tiffany paperweights. :help: WorthPoint currently (as of December, 2010) reaches 12 million page views each month. It is ranked 362 out of the top 1 million web sites by Quantcast.com. More page views than the GMB I think!
But august institutions are not immune to the name, don't read the text of course. http://store.metmuseum.org/home-accessories/tiffany-favrile-domed-paperweight/invt/80011840/
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Frank, the Worthpoint pws are Tiffany & Co., which if different than Tiffany Studios. Those don't count. Could you tell us people who don't know a lot about pws about the fish one?
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Yeah, that Met one was the one I was referring to in my last paragraph.
The ones on Worthpoint aren't favrile, anyway. Well, maybe the third is.
As far as the ones on prices4antiques go, they are just reporting sales, correct? So they aren't necessarily saying the items in question aren't fakes...they may have no way of knowing, and the sigs aren't shown. Personally, the fish one doesn't look to me like Tiffany quality, BWDIK? But how could that be favrile?? The scarab ones are an exception, evidently not qualifying as "traditional" in the statement I quoted. But maybe that dude's wrong, I don't know.
Ditto what Anita said in reply 53.