Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on September 25, 2011, 09:52:46 PM
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I love this box. It reminds me of Norwegian and Swedish ceramics I've owned. I'm interested if anyone has seen one somewhere. I suspect it may well be new'ish' and possibly mass produced but I haven't a clue. I've never seen one like it anywhere (not that that means anything).
edited to add - It may well not be Scandinavian at all, it had a label on it from Dubrovnik, just a paper label with what seemed to be the name of a store saying 'dubrovkinja DUBROVNIK' printed in blue ink and handwritten numbers 20264- . I took it off as it was on the picture.
It's satin glass on the exterior but polished interior.
Mould blown, the rim of the base of the box is cut and polished and bevelled on the outside edge. The rim of the lid seems slightly thicker and is cut and ground neatly but not polished, bevelled on both inside and outside edge. The decoration I think? is transfer printed and it is 'signed' or marked with initials.
Quite large about 12.5cm wide by 7cm high and quite heavy, seems to have a thickish base, doesn't feel flimsy.
Is this a department store piece? Any thought please? Many thanks :sun:
m
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aha, now I've looked up the label, I've found a newspaper article from 1987 that says Dubrovkinja was a state owned company that had shops in Dubrovnik and that many of the shops had numbers (three digits it seems) rather than names. Perhaps the numbers on my label correspond somewhere to what may have been a shop in Dubrovnik. I wonder if this is perhaps Yugoslavian glass or crystal (it 'pings' well ;D )?
m
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OK, I've looked more closely at this and I'm about to ask a stupid question possibly ::)
Is this printed or is it actually painted on?
I've attached two close ups taken through a magnifying glass for clarity.
thanks for looking
Also the lid of the box is very slightly concave.
m
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I would say it was screen printed. There are no brush marks (hand painted) and no easy discernible dots (transfer), just sort of run together dots.
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I think you might need Robbo for this, M. :thup:
The images look very similar to Figgio Flint pottery I have and have had - and look as if they're by the designer of stuff called Arabica - but there's every possibilty I've got that all muddled up and am just needing a cup of decent coffee (arabica).
I agree it looks screen printed. That's good. :)
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Thank you both :)
The design is raised and textured to touch. It looks very similar to the bark of the trees on my Legras vase in real life. There aren't any dots run together if you see what I mean, but no brush strokes either but I know what you mean Christine and I'm off to check out screen printing on glass now :)
Sue it reminds me a lot of Figgjo's Lotte designs (by Oliver) and also the Bjorn Winblad designs, but there are differences and most notably in the hands but also the eyes/mouths although stylistically very similar in overall effect. I've been trawling Arabia Wartsila etc, and not found those hands. The initials on the signature may help perhaps?
m
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I think when you screen print with something as thick as this must have been you get that sort of textured effect I can see because a screen is a fine net and the "paint" is squished through the unblanked off areas.
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It was Bjorn Winblad I was thinking about, :-[ but I still think Robbo's your man for this, he knows a lot about Scandi designers of this ilk.
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Christine thanks :rah: I was being particularly dim, but now understand.
Sue, no problem I knew what you meant :sun:
m
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'Bjorn Wiinblad' with two i 's - apologies
m
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The same seller was there this morning and look what I found :hiclp:
different screen print picture, but same designer - I must have missed it last week or they didn't bring it.
The boys all look happy on the box but on this vase they all look solemn.
m
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Hi m,
I believe the handwritten numbers are prices. As such, it's safe to date your pieces to pre-1994, before the Kuna replaced the Dinar (at a ratio of 1 to 1000). :)
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One more thing... I don't quite know or understand why there is continued reference to Scandinavian artists in this thread. As Yugoslavia (and today, the countries of former Yugoslavia) has a rich tradition of naive art, I suspect the images on the pieces are by a Yugoslav artist. Lj. K. may be Ljubinko Kamatovic (Serbia) or Ljubica Kroflin (Croatia). Unfortunately, not much can be found on either.
I like both pieces, by the way. :hi:
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Many thanks Anik, that's incredibly helpful :sun:
There is continued reference to Scandinavia because I can't change the title :). When I get time I'll ask the mods to change it.
m
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Ahhh, I see... I missed the 'style' part of it all. My apologies. :pb:
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and just very quickly for future reference as I found it hard to find this without a lead
here is a link to a site from the Museum of Naive and Marginal Art - Serbia
It has a huge list of artists and more info that I haven't time to look at yet...but will do.
http://www.naiveart.rs/zbirkae.htm#K
m
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What shall we change it to? Naive style? Folk-art style? (I think they're gorgeous, by the way.)
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These could still be a transfer print. Screen dots would only occur of it the transfer was printed using a half tone photographic method. Which while suited for easy full colour printing it is not necessary and would not be the first choice for this type of illustration. Also you can get screen dots from silk screen and other types of printing so should never be assumed as an indicator of transfer.
If these were mass produced direct lithography is another option and again no screen dots would need to be present. But otherwise transfer would be quicker and cheaper than silk screen for medium volumes.
After printing the objects are heated to fuse the enamels. The indicator for direct printing and including silk screen would be minute tails in the trailing direction of the printing. But these could disappear as the enamel fuses and raises. Such artefacts might also be present on a transfer that was printed in a rotary press but not one that was printed on a flat press.
Screens are used to produce gradated tones in mono and colour printing. With enamels it is necessary to keep the dots separated as you do not get the benefit of ink transparency. Just looking at a transfer on a glass too hand this is 6 colour graphic line-printed i.e. no dots. with raised enamel.
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Sorry for the late reply but I've been away for a couple of days.
Cathy thanks :sun: I think they are so appealing. I'm not really sure what to rename as, since we still aren't entirely sure of origin. However with the fantastic lead from Anik and the help from Frank and Christine on the method of printing (Frank did I read it right that these could be enamel?), perhaps they could justifiably be renamed as 'Yugoslavian 'naive art' enamelled figures- satin glass lidded box & vase' ? Can we wait and hear whether enamel is the right term to use first please?
Dimensions of vase 21cm tall, 6.5cm at the base edge to edge (it curves in slightly) and rim 7.3cm as the vase flairs very slightly about two thirds of the way up.
Frank, thanks so much! I used to deal with paper printing and techniques but never with anything to do with glass (and my interaction was fairly limited), but I understand some of what you were saying and can work some of it out. In your last comment "Just looking at a transfer on a glass too hand this is 6 colour graphic line-printed i.e. no dots. with raised enamel." were you refering to the transfer on the glass you were looking at, or were you referring to my box and vase as being '6 colour graphic line-printed i.e. no dots. with raised enamel'? I've only ever heard of mono, 2 colour or 4 colour not 6 colour.
Thanks for any further enlightenment :sun:
p.s. I went to an interesting exhibition in Barcelona a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately I only had an hour and more was needed:
http://museumpublicity.com/2011/05/13/museu-dart-contemporani-de-barcelona-macba-presents-museum-of-parallel-narratives/
m
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Yours are mono colour. Sometimes printing uses made-up colours (i.e., ready mixed if you like), so you could have as many as you like; in your case one.
Four colour commercial printing is CMYK: cyan, magenta, yellow and key (black). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMYK_color_model
I think that paint on glass, at least the fired-on sort, is enamel, i.e., based on powdered glass. Hopefully Frank will tell me if I'm wrong.
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Thanks Christine. Ok Cathy if you read this and when you have time, please could we change it to the suggestion or similar in my above post? Many thanks :)
I'm still trying to decide in my head how big the run of these might have been. I'm sure they aren't one offs, but my instinct says that they weren't produced in the long runs of say transfer printed glasses for example. Both pieces are beautifully made and finished glass wise, the shape of both doesn't shriek mass produced items to me and the fact that the designers signature is on there just makes me think they may have been short run commissioned pieces? I'm no further on any more information on the designers, despite Anik's fab info unfortunately. I may contact the museum perhaps and see if they can enlighten further. I found one other name that could fit the initials Ljubiša Jovanović Kene (just adding for my future reference :) )
Thanks again to everyone for help and input :sun:
m
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If you can't scratch it, it is enamel. Essentially glass! Line printing you tend to mix the colours you want and then print once per colour. Versace, and similar, scarves have over 40 separate colour printings but they ain't glass. The advantage over screen colour printing is you get the exact colours you want. Obviously with silk screen you are unlimited in colours and nuber of printings... apart from cost and space of course.
I would guess these were probably produced in the hundreds, particularly if selling dept stores. Hope you can track the artist, might lead to the glassworks or at least country of production.
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I'll have a go Frank ;)
Perhaps the museum may be able to help.
I'll post back if I hear anything.
m
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polite bump for these although not hopeful.
Is it possible to rename the thread 'Naive art - Serbia / Croatia screenprinted figures on glass box ' please?
I've come down to thinking these are possibly Serbian because it seems large hands and feet play a part in Serbian naive art quite prominently. I've found a possible 'catalogue' listing of a naive art exhibition from 1973 authored by Milica Maširević and Ljubinko Kamatović (Initials which fit this signature on the box) and that date would fit in with the style of decoration perhaps, as it reminds me of 60's 70's Figgjo Flint ceramics dating from that era. So maybe these are from the 70's perhaps?
But apart from this I am at a dead end. I have re emailed the museum again and will post if I hear anything this time.
Meanwhile if we happen to have an expert on East European naive art on the board ....please do let me know if you know anything :) Many thanks for looking
m
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Hi m, the screen is blank for whatever you have added today....please can you re write it as I have been following this thread and would love to know more?
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There are a lot of ceramics and glass on this site..including the Bjorn Wiinblad information which says he worked in glass also. I recently sold a jug of his so I thought your glasses looked familiar too. (Maybe not his though) There are quite a few potters on here that worked at the glass companies too. Maybe a look through those? Either way there is some interesting information on there for glassies and pottery lovers.
http://www.richardwallisantiks.co.uk/
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It's you Rosie. I have reported it
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Should be fixed now?
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thank you Trudy :) I'll have a look through but I do suspect this isn't a Scandinavian maker given the initials.
m
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Thank you Christine for reporting it and Anne for fixing it...all seems OK now.... they are lovely m, I will follow the thread as I would like to know the maker too.
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Thanks :)
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Ever hopeful that some more info might surface on these two pieces ;D
A polite bump and some better pictures.
The designs are quite thickly screen printed I now think, you can feel them very clearly when you run your fingers over the lines, very raised.
The rim edges are cut and bevelled and polished and they are cut from the top.
m
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http://www.botterweg.com/Kesteren_Maria_van/Leerdam/Lot-16315.aspx?tabid=59&lotid=16315&language=en-US&auctionid=29&tag=Leerdam
this looks quite similar doesn't it? - Leerdam box frosted glass,the same shape, the same thick casing on the bottom, the same glossy interior.
It's smaller than mine but I'm just wondering if mine was produced there in the larger size?
m
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Well we must never give up, and yes, I agree that the glass container does look as though it could be Leerdam, so who is the artist?
Well, ages ago I posted a plea for the artist who engraved this optic lens.... so is this someone who buys blank glass and adds their own decoration?
I ask because look at the signature on your glass and my glass.... very similar isn't it?
And look at the fingers in both your and mine.
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Rosie I think they are the same artist and signature. Note also the three leaf 'emblem' that appears in yours and also in my box design.
Tenuous thoughts here, but it would be interesting if the L wrapped around the J stood for Leerdam, hence the way it's written (rather than being designed that way to denote a hyphenated first name e.g. Lisa-Jane), so the initials would then be Leerdam J.K. Looking at the Leerdam signatures here that would be in a similar vein
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/main492.html
I came across a Hungarian illustrator called János Kass and wondered?
He did screen prints etc. as well.
(bearing in mind mine was sold in Dubrovnik)
Amazing work here
http://www.kollergaleria.hu/artist/kass_janos-19-hu
but one of the most interesting is called Adam and Eve
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1nos_Kass
and if you just put Janos Kass into google lots of colourful work comes up in a similar fairytale vein.
m
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see my post above for links and suggestion of artist Janos Kass
See also the two prints if you scroll down on this blog
They are from children's book Janos Kass
one is in sepia as per my vase and box
http://theanimalarium.blogspot.it/2012/05/hungarian-spring.html
in the green picture when you've scrolled down, note the lion's tail and in the sepia one, the shading technique on the horns. It is very similar to the technique used in my pieces and the shading on the round edge of the tail is used on the necks on the people on the box.
This artist created a series of stamps from Hungarian Fairy tales for her degree work
https://www.behance.net/gallery/Stamp-design-for-hungarian-folk-tales/4390069
The style is very reminiscent of my box and vase designs.
I feel that my pieces were possibly a Hungarian designer
m
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Rosie I think they are the same artist and signature.
They are very close but, I think, not not the same. Rosie's item seems to have a "T." between the first 'L J' (?) mark and the "K".
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It does Kev, you are right.
But there are similarities between them even though one is engraved and one is inked (or printed)
Actually, all thoughts on this are very tenuous from my end to be honest:
It's the wrong size box to the one in the link but so very similar that it could have been produced at Leerdam as a possible.
The depiction of the engraving is quite different in style to the people on the boxes yet similar somehow.
The hands are also different but very similar in their long fingered oddity.
The signature is very close but not quite the same.
However, worthwhile having the two pieces together along with those observations just in case there turns out to be a link eventually I guess.
m
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I suppose we are looking at common comparisons and similarities, not identical matches.
I just felt that the Signature was a very similar, possibly even close match here.
Over time, many artists either drop or add a part of their name, so is it worth holding this thought in the back of our minds?
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http://www.kollergaleria.hu/art/fej-308-hu
This sepia/brown toned drawing called 'Fej' is signed j.j.l. Kass/77 according to the gallery information.
The face is remarkably similar to the middle boy on the vase
I think this artist is a distinct possibility now
Edited:
Just adding this remarkable catalogue of artworks
http://www.kollergaleria.hu/images/kiallitas/5/demo.pdf
m
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Re the artworks in the link above - there is a long introduction and then the pictures start on page 18
and with regard the signature on my pieces, it is possible that what looks like an L is stylised and is in fact an L and J combined, then with the J. and K. so L J J. K. in fact?
Some more illustrations here with the second one down particularly reminiscent of the box boys hair
http://rezkarcfitness.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/kiallitas-kass-janos.html
So, if he is the artist, then where has the glass come from? could it be Leerdam? or could it be AJKA maybe? It is very simple but perfectly executed, it feels heavy and expensive, not one iota of 'cheap' about it.
m
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Not Ajka, not Leerdam, sorry.
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ah ok Ivo, thank you for checking for me :)
Just adding that this picture is signed j.l.Kass/76 according to the gallery so only one J. on this one whereas two on many others.In fact having scrolled through many of his works, many of those from the 70s and 80s were signed with only one J.
http://www.kollergaleria.hu/art/hary_janos_belyegillusztracio__par-3695-hu
m
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Well well well. I've come across a list of Orrefors engravers and one of them has the initials LJK.
Ljupco Kocovski - dates of Orrefors tenure are given as 1978-1980.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200112233107/http://glassfromsweden.com/orrefors-engraved-glass-engravers-list.html
A new avenue to explore.
So far all I can find is engraved glass and that appears to have also been done for Pukeberg and I think other companies as well.
There is more information on Kocovski here:
https://www.storiestoldinglass.com/listing/733416780/three-skiers-vintage-engraved-swedish
This is the most detailed item I've found 1982, in terms of comparing style of design to the box lid. Obviously a different technique though -
https://auctionet.com/en/125071-jagare-med-hund-gravyr-pa-glas-signerad-och-daterad-11-25-1982/images#image_1
m
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Well well well. I've come across a list of Orrefors engravers and one of them has the initials LJK.
Ljupco Kocovski - dates of Orrefors tenure are given as 1978-1980.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200112233107/http://glassfromsweden.com/orrefors-engraved-glass-engravers-list.html
A new avenue to explore.
So far all I can find is engraved glass and that appears to have also been done for Pukeberg and I think other companies as well.
There is more information on Kocovski here:
https://www.storiestoldinglass.com/listing/733416780/three-skiers-vintage-engraved-swedish
This is the most detailed item I've found 1982, in terms of comparing style of design to the box lid. Obviously a different technique though -
https://auctionet.com/en/125071-jagare-med-hund-gravyr-pa-glas-signerad-och-daterad-11-25-1982/images#image_1
m
I can't really see any resemblance between the two types of designs. Shame.
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There are some design similarities with pieces by an artist called Ljubica Ratkajec Kočica though.
a ceramic sculpture here - the dots/speckles and the lips and some of the facial features:
https://auctionet.com/en/366520-statyett-keramik-signerad-ljubica-kocica-1986/images#image_5
a painting here - the hands and fingers and also the dots as a motif:
https://www.dos-design.si/images/uploads/portfolio_x/LRatkajec_photo10.jpg
The hands and fingers on this sculpture:
https://galerijamak.com/izdelek/kocica-ljubica-2/
And she also worked with glass as well as ceramics -
https://mrezadizajna.com/autor/ljubica-ratkajec-kocica
and some examples here:
https://athena.muo.hr/?object=linked&c2o=16157&page=3
I think my box very much could be by her actually - see this facebk post with the picture of the fish on glass and the painting of the woman:
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1499871083666538&set=pcb.1499871103666536
https://www.facebook.com/jakobovesanjejakobzupan/posts/dru%C5%A1tvo-prostovoljcev-miklav%C5%BEeve-dru%C5%A1%C4%8Dine-za-pomo%C4%8D-otrokom-za-jakobove-sanje-pod/1499871343666512/
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There is also this wonderful piece for comparison:
https://ventilatorbesed.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/0904000946000034-150x150.jpg