Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on October 05, 2011, 05:11:20 AM
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I place great reliance on Lesley Jackson's two books, Whitefriars (1996) and Factory Glass (2000), not only because errors are very few and far between, but also because she was, I believe, museum trained, so, if she didn't know, she didn't invent it.
I've had occasion to mention horizontal optic moulding in topics such as Stevens & Williams Vase? (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,42704.0.html) and, rather longer ago, Heavily optic banded tumbler vase for id please (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,35833.0.html), this last one turning out to be a Whitefriars Twilight 9094. As you can see my terminology is confused.
Why? Simply because I've never seen the word rib used for moulded horizontal rings or bands in any original glassworks material. It's not a common term anyway, but on the few occasions I've found it, it is used only in the context of vertical optic moulding. I've found it in what little Stevens & Williams documentation I've seen, but not so far in any of the Whitefriars catalogues in Evans or on whitefriars dot com.
So where did Lesley Jackson get her term "horizontal optic ribbing" from, used in both books in relation to the Whitefriars 9094 and similar patterns? Am I justified in being unhappy about using it?
What are the respective moulds called today? ... presumably dip moulds for vertical ribbing and opening moulds for horizontal moulding?
Your thoughts, please.
Thanks for your interest,
Bernard C. 8)
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it may boil down to the simple difficulty of finding an equally effective synonym...........what alternatives are there for rib (at least in the non-meat context), that convey the sense of a series of broad, regularly spaced lines (can't think of an effective substitute even now) - and doubtless we have taken the word from its natural context i.e. our own ribs. In the glass sense, we use the word 'moulding' because the effect is indeed produced by a mould - although the end result still looks a lot like a series of ribs. Alternatives such as rings or bands may have too wide an interpretation, whereas we all have this fairly standard notion of what a rib/ribs looks like. In reality, of course, bodily ribs are horizontal (or almost so) - and if the visual effect of these lines in an horizontal plane is the same as looking at them upright, then there would be no rational reason for objecting to using the same terminology (in effect more appropriate for horizontal use, than vertical, perhaps).
I can't help precisely with Jackson's origins for the word, but you may care to read her definition of 'ribbed' in the glossary in the Whitefriars book, where there is almost an implication that the expression is perhaps not hers.
Equally, I can't help with the technicalities of the names of moulds (not remotely that clever).
So the expression 'optic ribbing' might be used equally, whether horizontal or vertical - provided the effect is produced by a mould.
Whenever it seems like an explanation is going to be simple, you can bet your life it is quite the opposite - and I'm now almost wishing I hadn't thought of replying :)
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I can't see anything wrong with using the phrase 'horizontal optically ribbed'
our ribs are horizontal, I would understand that phrase as an opposite to vertically ribbed. To me horizontal bands would imply flat surfaces rather than undulating as in ribs.
m
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I have a collection of all the Whitefriars 'Horizontal Optic Rib' vases, catalogue numbers 9582 - 9587, and I can assure you that if you feel inside the vases you can definitely feel the 'ribs'.
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For horizontal optic (why say more) you don't need a mould just a flat corrugated sheet to roll on.
S&W appear to have drop 'Optic' for the much more evocative description of 'Venetian Waved' at some point. They also had a 'Ribbed' decoration (http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/456f19c10205d3d9f351b844dc50f914.jpg) which is certainly not optic but would be also made using a dip mould. Where they did use Ribbed it was usually well pronounced (http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/a134bc6136b0259d0e732f25e36a609a.jpg)(http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/d0576714dce01573162d90888b5ab1d3.jpg) than optic.
Chance Bros also used the term Optic on its own. (Lampshades)
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I would associate ribs with decoration that can be felt on the outside, while optic is (in the US, anyway) smooth on the outside, the pattern only felt within.
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Kristi, I always think of it in the same way as well. Ribs you can feel on the outside, whereas optic ribs are a visual perception (ribbed on the inside only).
m
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Optic is only felt within, the problem then is how do you describe it, as not all optic patterns are the same.
And horizontal optic only describes something running from top to bottom. It doesn't say whether it's straight or not.
It's a minefield and I don't see why as many descriptors as required can't be used.
One definition of a rib, noun, (New Oxford Dictionary of English) is "a long raised piece of stronger or thicker material across a surface or through a structure..."
Rib, verb, "mark or form into raised bands or ridges." The adjective ribbed therefore follows.
No directionality involved.
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The point I was making in my post was that whereas 'rings' or 'bands' can mean just flat bands, 'ribs' clearly means a raised effect, which would be the case whether said 'ribs' were internal or externally felt, IMHO.
horizontal optic only describes something running from top to bottom.
Wrong way round, Christine ;) the horizon goes across, not top to bottom ;D :-*
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The point I was making in my post was that whereas 'rings' or 'bands' can mean just flat bands, 'ribs' clearly means a raised effect, which would be the case whether said 'ribs' were internal or externally felt, IMHO.
Which concurs with the dictionary
And I really shouldn't answer when I don't have enough time, as I know the difference between horizontal and vertical perfectly well (left and right, well that's different) :-[
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I reckon ribs need to be able to be felt - I don't care if they're horizontal, vertical or somewhere inbetween; on the inside or the outside.
Optic refers to the effect being visual, the ribs wouldn't need to be felt.
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A Whitefriars example 9583 horizontal optic ribbed cylinder vase, straight thick walled 10mm thick perfectly smooth on the outside heavy pronounced ribs felt on the inside.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-kNIHLa8p9C4/TnJwxItzILI/AAAAAAAAR_Y/bsDMs4EoQLk/s512/SDC15814.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OTVT4GwL4iU/TnH2OPkVXoI/AAAAAAAAR-4/AzbevMs7HdY/s640/SDC15816.JPG
Chris
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The term was in common use within the collecting fraternity long before its use by Jackson.
Nigel