Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on November 25, 2011, 05:31:11 PM
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These have a similarity in surface look/feel to a leaf dish from last year.... http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,35577.0.html... which was confirmed as probably Bohemian/German or French. The gold coloured painting and general unchipped condition is remarkably good for the fact that these Nautilus posy/violet vases may well have originated in the last quarter of the C19.
Dirk's previous comment that..............."marvered in shards, which are reheated and fire polished to makethe surface smooth" - looks to be the most likely method of producing the rough surface in this instance. Maximum height is 4.25" - 108mm. The feet have ground/polished/bevelled outer rims, the thickness of which - typical for this period - is quite variable in thickness - likewise the top rim. The slightly 'V' shaped bands have also been cut and polished prior to gilding.
Of course, if anyone does have a specific factory in mind, please do let me know, and thanks for looking :)
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Would I be right in thinking the correct name for these is Cornucopia ?
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well, that did occur to me also, but having looked briefly at Wiki I came to the conclusion that a Cornucopia was more of a horn like structure...........but let's see what others think. :)
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I think you are probably right. I can only think its one of those words that got used as a generic term as i have seem items of English glass in this shape called a Cornucopia, when in fact as you say the true meaning relates more to a horn than it does to a shell.
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Lovely. They're nautilus shells.
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thanks Christine - go on, you've been reading my post :24: :24: only joking - it's almost the only shell name I know. I now don't really collect outside of British material, but saw these in the charity shop, and couldn't resist them.
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What's to say they're not English. It's not just a French or German technique
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What happened to the term overshot glass?
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pass.......you tell us :) With my very scant knowledge of this method of surface decoration, I'm least qualified to comment, however.........I suspect this is a more colloquial Continental description than a standard British term, possibly because of its more frequent application on non-British wares. I've just looked through the indices of English glass dictionaries of Newman, Elville and Ash.....also both of the Hajdamach volumes and one or two other quite good books............and nowhere do I see the word 'overshot'.
I am aware of its meaning, but only through written posts etc. on the GMB - and it arose in particular via a post I did last year re this 'ice crackle water jug..... http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,34016.msg184040.html#msg184040.....see Craig's P.S. in the fourth item down.
Perhaps, then, it is also a little more popular in America north of Mexico. For what it's worth, I don't find the word particularly accurate or descriptive of the process or the textured end result...........but maybe I'm just a 'philistine' ;)
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There is a very good explanation here of what is termed 'overshot' glass.
Personally, I don't find the term Eisglas very helpful.
http://www.theglassmuseum.com/overshot.htm
I would think that the index of a book only refers to the contents within the title, so I presume if overshot glass of some type is not included in the volume then it wont be in the index. Maybe the British didn't make much overshot glass?
m
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Thanks for your link m, very interesting, and would appear to lend weight to the possibility that it was Continental Europe and North America, mostly, that appeared to favour this 'fritty' type of surface decoration.
It's a pity that we don't have a more user friendly word - such as Coralene for example - with which to describe the textured effect on these clear glass items. I assume that Coralene is so called simply because of the artistic applied design which has the appearance of strands of coral.
Perhaps we should call the clear glass decoration '60 grit frittelene' :24: :24:
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Overshot glass was widely made in England, France and Germany (and Ireland and Belgium and and and) and the term has been used for decades without any ambiguity. We should not introduce confusion and misnomers here. :help:
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Darn, I was just considering to suggest ´applied fritz´ for the german variant, but to avoid further
confusion let´s agree to ´overshot´... :ac1:
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quote from Dirk........"´applied fritz´for the German variant"......a real gem Dirk ;D - however, we don't want upset Chancellor Dr. Merckel and create more instability for the Euro, so we'll stick with Ivo's overshot. ;)
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my apologies to the entire German nation.........the spelling should, of course, be Merkel :)
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Paul, Dirk and I just had one of our extensive phone conversations: we won't merkel about your typo :24: :24: :24:
Incidentally today I received a small catalogue as a gift from my dear collecting friend Doris B.:
GLASS FROM WORLD'S FAIRS 1851-1904 - Jane Shadel Spillman, CMOG, 1986
page 18 shows an image as follows:
> "Fig. 6a "Engraved and Coloured Glass by Messrs. W.P. & G. Phillips, London", pl. 68, from Masterpieces of Industrial Art & Sculpture at the International Exhibition, 1862 by J.B. Waring <
Pictured are two huge centrepieces, one of these has five or six very similar Nautilus shells in the mid-level.
Can only offer to send a scan by email, if you are interested.
:sm:
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thanks Pamela - and yes, I would be very interested to see the image showing these smaller Nautilus shells from your catalogue. Please don't hurry - whenever you have the spare time. :)
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sorry, had meant to ask the Mods. to change subject title to something like........Overshot Nautilus posy vases..........or similar. thanks. :)
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Paul was there an indication of where these were made please?
Edited to say that should have read...was it confirmed your Nautilus shells were made by Messrs W.P. and G. Phillips, London.?
thanks
m
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the short answer was no. I did receive the image from the Spillman catalogue page from Pamela, but having looked at this came to the conclusion that there was insufficient similarity between my shells and the Phillips examples to make a connection. Since it would be too wordy to explain why I thought not, the following is part of my reply to Pamela,
............."although I must say that your catalogue picture shows Nautilus shells that appear to be a lot more complex than my rather simple examples.
Your shells are opaque rather than clear like mine, and there seem to be 'arms' coming out of yours, on the ends of which are candlesticks - very posh looking. I guess the whole centre piece is what the French would have called an 'epergne' i.e. a centre piece for flowers, for the table"........
Doesn't mean that mine positively had nothing to do with Phillips - just that I couldn't see enough likeness to really link them. So the jury remains out.
What makes you ask?? :)
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this ;D
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46076.0.html
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ah yes, see what you mean - in fact I hadn't see most of yesterday's posts - I was so engrossed in my own good fortune. I like the quality of your photograph, makes the goblet look especially good with that lighting, and the black background. It's not easy producing good results with clear glass, and you've done well. It's essential to be ecstatic about something, although think I've gone off mine a little - they are a tad smallish, and don't quite have the same appeal as your piece, plus I try now to stick to British, and even that's coming out of my ears. ;D If you say the likelihood is Bohemian (for yours and mine) then I wouldn't argue with you.
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mm, what size are the nautilus posies? are you interested in selling please?
m
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you will see that the height of 4.1/4" was given in my first post. Don't think that I'd sell them, but will send you an off-board email :)
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yes, sorry Paul I did see that when I scrolled up again. Well if you ever did decide you could part with them, please would you let me know? ;D many thanks
m
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Ask me if you need a matching set of leaf dishes.
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Pretty Ivo! Do you use them?
m
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No - they tend to disintegrate in the dish washer. I figure these are from Meisenthal circa 1880.
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.........oh, but mine is nicer than Ivo's ;) Have just remembered this one from 2010...
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Ivo, thank you :) but I would have no idea what to do with them though :-[ My Dartington daisy dishes are dishwashable and I'd need to be able to use them.
m
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These were finally made mine and I love them.
I think I have an id - that they are probably part of the same set as this 'MUSCHELSCHALE AUS EISGLAS' bowl - or at least made by the same maker (i.e. Neuwelt - Harrach ) and date to around 1860.
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/219-european-glass-and-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=36571&L=1&cHash=7be6f6d804
this link shows a very good close up
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/18081483_muschelschale-aus-eisglas
mine pictured below with goblet
They are used at Christmas in our house :)
m
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Like those, might this be a close relative ? ;D
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It might :) It's difficult to tell, but if it were mine I'd plump for Bohemian over French for yours (don't ask me to explain why though).
The knop on the stem of your bowl is different to the salts and goblet however that doesn't mean it's not Harrach. It could be Harrach. Perhaps a different 'design' or 'range'. But it might also be Josephinenhutte maybe ? although I don't know if they produced crackle/overshot glass.
m
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It was just the similar hollow foot that made me think they may have come from the same place, ;D ;D
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yes I see what you mean :)
There are some Harrach overshot glass photographs somewhere that show some of their pieces.
It's very hard to determine these and I end up going by gut instinct for searching at first.
My instinct in the end on mine was that they are 'masculine', therefore I start with Bohemian ;D
I think of French glass as being feminine. I can't even begin to explain that feeling but it seems to work for me.
I can't access the Clichy book any more and I didn't buy it when I had the chance, but I think the French overshot glass is a bit more 'refined' somehow. Not that my pieces aren't refined but there is a difference somewhere along the way ;D
There is a goblet in the Harrach book page 175 that has a gilded join that isn't as pronounced as that on my goblet. It's more like the depth of the gilded band on your compote. It dates to c.1865
m
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Thanks m, I shall have to get that Harrach book you mentioned, ;D
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it's a fabulous book - huge with loads of fabulous glass. I thought it was well worth it.
( but still not enough in it of course ;D)
m
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Eisglas in use on table along with a set of Rheinische Glashütten AG Köln-Ehrenfeld airtwist glasses.
Nautilus shells used for salt and pepper and leaf dish for cranberry sauce.
Nice to think it's been used for over 150 years :)