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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on December 05, 2011, 04:16:14 PM

Title: Small British glass with oddly shaped stem for comment please
Post by: Bernard C on December 05, 2011, 04:16:14 PM

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1311.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1311.jpg)        (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1312.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1312.jpg)

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1313.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1313.jpg)        (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1314.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1314.jpg)

Click any image to enlarge.

H. exactly 4½", rim d. exactly 2½", foot d. exactly 2½", w. 5oz 143g.   Seven neat panel or flake cuts to the bowl.   Partly ground out and polished pontil scar.   Considerable genuine wear to the foot.   Note that the double step at the base of the top knop was hot worked, not cut (see final image).

The construction of this glass puzzles me.   I think that the top knop was a collar between the bowl and stem, and the foot was applied to the stem, making it four-piece construction — but I am not at all sure.   Inside the top knop is a small C-shaped bubble.   The base of the foot around the pontil mark seems to be the natural glass surface.

It's a delight to hold and drink from.

Bernard C.  8)

PS — Note that I've used British in the Victorian sense inclusive of Ireland.
Title: Re: Small British glass with oddly shaped stem for comment please
Post by: Ming on December 06, 2011, 03:33:06 AM
Bernard
There was a similiar ale glass sold by Fieldings in 102 3 Centuries of Glass.
Lot 234
A 19th Century ale glass with a slice cut conical bowl above a large annulated and bladed knop stem with circular spread foot, height 13.5cm.
Sold for £22 hammer.
Ming
Title: Re: Small British glass with oddly shaped stem for comment please
Post by: flying free on December 06, 2011, 09:36:01 AM
I'm always curious with these things, that if one doesn't know who made it how can one know it is British?
Is it that the cutting on this piece is purely British,  or did no other country do this shape?
m :sun:
Title: Re: Small British glass with oddly shaped stem for comment please
Post by: Paul S. on December 06, 2011, 10:11:02 AM
Without seeing the Fielding's example, then it's not a done and dusted matter so to speak, but assuming the connection is correct then a helpful lesson for all of us drinking glass collectors.            However, if you look through the books, then as a type specimen, this example shows characteristics not associated with an ale glass, usually.
Sorry, I can't add anything of any real use, and most of the following is only quoted from the books anyway, but.........
Booze was certainly much stronger in the C18, which is why bowls were a lot smaller - and the same century provides examples of ales with one or more knops, cutting, and often decoration by way of engraved hops/barley etc.  -  but virtually all are taller than this one.     The Fieldings example, quoted at 13.5 cms. equates to 5.5/16", which is a little more like an ale height - and would suggest a late C18 or early C19 date.   
Dwarf ales do, of course, get down to the height of Bernard's, but they are a different kettle of fish entirely.
The fact that this example sits on the foot proper (the foot appears quite flat) as opposed to the edge of the foot rim, suggests strongly that this is a C19 glass  -  and makes it all the more unusual as an ale.           The ground pontil is less of a real help since this can appear on glasses from roughly 1760 to anytime onwards (for quality glasses) - but probably fades out around 1860/70 ish for more utilitarian pieces.
Bernard doesn't comment on the colour of the metal  -  this would be useful to know.
The small 'C' shaped bubble would appear to be simply trapped air when attaching the bowl to the stem.    Collars were often a way of hiding irregularities at this join between the bowl and the stem.
For what it's worth I am inclined to think that Bernard's example is not an ale - but rather a wine of some description OR perhaps an unusual rummer, and from somewhere in the first third of the C19.

Would be very useful to have Peter's view on this glass.
However, a very interesting glass, and one which I would definitely keep.
Title: Re: Small British glass with oddly shaped stem for comment please
Post by: Paul S. on December 06, 2011, 10:25:45 AM
m is quite correct, of course, and it isn't a foregone conclusion that this would be British.      However, one of the tell tale pointers would be if the glass is of lead composition  -  so, Bernard, does it ring well?? :)
Title: Re: Small British glass with oddly shaped stem for comment please
Post by: oldglassman on December 06, 2011, 10:42:11 AM
HI ,
        Once again I don't think I will be able to contribute much to this item , pretty useless really!!!   but again it is late for my particular interest,I have seen many little glasses like this in my time ,none of which i would have called an ale glass , wine ,sherry or port i think would have been the use , to my eye they most likely date to the second 1/2 of the 19th c ,it looks like lead glass to me and therefor i think could have been made not only in Britain but also could have been made in France or Belgium,and probably Germany too.

Sorry i cant be of much help , the head is well stuck in the 17th and 18thc at the moment ,just back from the sale of the Celebrated Hubbard collection of glass at Bonham's London last week , and happy to report that 6 lots have now found a new home with me ,

Cheers ,
             Peter.
Title: Re: Small British glass with oddly shaped stem for comment please
Post by: Bernard C on December 06, 2011, 03:28:46 PM
Thank you all for your contributions.

Here's the link to Fieldings Auction 102 lot 234 (http://www.fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/resultsLotDetails.asp?lotsID=53886&menuItemOn=2&salesID=88&hasImage=1).   I reckon the stems are quite similar in size, but the bowl on lot 234 is taller and a slightly narrower shape.

Quote from: flying free on December 06, 2011, 09:36:01 AM
I'm always curious with these things, that if one doesn't know who made it how can one know it is British?
Is it that the cutting on this piece is purely British,  or did no other country do this shape?
m :sun:

As you can appreciate, I've handled and measured a lot of glass.   Every piece of C19 glass I've had through my hands that has at least two basic measurements exact inch sizes has been either British or American.   Statistically, there are bound to be a few exceptions, but I've never found one, so I'm confident that this glass, with not two but three exact inch measurements is British.   When it comes to C20, exceptions are still unusual, but I'm fairly certain that sometimes factors like Lang specified work in inches, and to meet the requirement some of their regular Continental suppliers manufactured to inch sizes.

A significant amount of useful information is lost by not measuring glass the same way as the original makers.   If you don't know, please do it both ways.   Converted measurements should be avoided but should always be shown in parentheses ().

Quote from: Paul S. on December 06, 2011, 10:11:02 AM
...   Bernard doesn't comment on the colour of the metal  -  this would be useful to know.   ...

It looks colourless to me.   But then I compared it with a Chippendale sherry or port of a similar size, and the metal does have some colour.   My colour vision is not perfect and is a little weak at the red end of the spectrum, so I see some borderline purples as blue where others would see them as purple.   I see the colour of this glass as a slightly blueish slate grey in cloudy daylight.

Quote from: Paul S. on December 06, 2011, 10:25:45 AM
...   However, one of the tell tale pointers would be if the glass is of lead composition  -  so, Bernard, does it ring well?? :)

Wow!   It does.   A beautiful and long high pitched ring.   Mid C20 pressed Chippendale just goes thud.  ;D

Peter — Well done.   Please let us see them sometime, and don't forget that ignoramuses like yours truly need telling why they are wonderful.   ... or is it ignorami?   ... or ignorames?

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Small British glass with oddly shaped stem for comment please
Post by: flying free on December 07, 2011, 11:39:17 PM
Thank you for your explanation  :sun: without really thinking why, I do tend to measure in inches and cm's but then in inches only where I think the item is older British (I don't have any American glass...yet  :)) so I guess there is method in my oddness. 
m