Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: eglass on December 11, 2011, 02:55:22 AM
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Hi folks!
I haven't visited here in a long time, I hope you all are well!
Found a pretty neat piece I think, at the estate sale of the fellow who ran the Santa Fe Opera. (NM, USA)
He was quite a collector, and had tons of European glass, mainly English.
This piece is flint, about 9" tall, and 6.5" wide - nice rolled rim, and the lid has that hollow bulbous "mushroom" lid.
Lots of wear on the bottom.
I guess I'm just looking for a nod from those of you who know about this type of glass. It's the first piece I've
seen outside of my British Glass book, lol.
Thanks!
Kelli
I hope this link takes you to my gallery....
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=10123&pos=1
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Hi Kelli, good to see you back. This is a lovely piece, I have no idea who it might be by (but someone else probably will have) but I just wanted to ask if we could include it in the 2012 glass calendar as it's such a nice piece? If you have larger images that we could use that'd be super. Thanks!
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Anne, wow!
Well, sure, that would be wonderful! And then you have to let me know where I can buy a calendar, lol!
I still have the piece, so I will take some high res. photos of it for you. :)
Thanks!
Kelli
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Thanks Kelli, received safe and sound. It's a free download calendar that we do every year on the board for our members.
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Thanks Anne, glad they came through okay. :)
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very nice piece Kelli - attractive with the curved mitres and cross-hatched strawberry diamonds - and although Irish isn't my forte, I'll tell you what little I do know, and then we can hope an expert comes in. :)
The rolled over top does seem to have been an Irish speciality, and although the height is o.k. for a salad bowl, the diameter is too small, so we are left with a suggestion of a lidded jar or lidded sweetmeat (besides which the salads didn't have lids). However, that doesn't automatically make it Irish, and I think it would be a rash person who said categorically it was. I assume that your title is suggesting that you think it was made by the English in Ireland??
Lidded jars/sweetmeats in these approximate sizes were made very commonly in Britain/Eire and on the Continent of Europe between 1810 and 1830, although the rolled over top might suggest it wasn't Continental.
The stepped foot is o.k. for the period - is yours moulded or cut do you know? - and we'd like to see a picture please of the underside of the foot, as the characteristics of the star can help to date these pieces. Do you know if it is a lead glass composition? - have you flicked it to get a ring :) Are there any stones in the glass?
Having said all that, there are C20 copies of the early C19 originals - and these would appear brighter and whiter than the slightly lead coloured originals. I'm thinking 1920's now, and a piece even from that date might show enough wear to make you think it was a lot older. I'm not suggesting it is definitely one period or the other, but these factors can help to reach a conclusion.
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Hi Paul!
Thanks so much for your input, and helping me figure out a little more about this piece. :)
It is cut, and I will upload a couple more photos of the foot, top and bottom, so you can get a better idea of that part of it. As far as composition, it rings like a church bell when "pinged" with my finger....sounds like what they call "flint" glass here in the US.
I'm totally open to suggestions, since like I mentioned this is the first piece of this type I've ever seen in person. I did a little digging on the web as well as in my British Glass book and a couple of other references on "Old Glass - European and American" and of course now am totally confused, ha. I may never know WHO, but it's nice to get an idea of where and when. I had pretty much assumed that it was a "Sweetmeat" based on some similarly cut/sized pieces that I saw in collector's galleries online.
Photos added to the gallery:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=948
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Oh, I forgot to address one question - I don't see any stones in the glass, or bits of ash, and the glass is extremely clear.
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thanks for the extra pictures Kelli. I have taken the liberty of adding two of my own, showing different sized lidded sweetmeats, really to illustrate the difference in colour between something that is well over 200 years old, and a piece this is perhaps only half that age, or younger.
The piece on the right is the real thing - typical English Regency period of about 1800, and having a very definite soft lead coloured hue. The other smaller example is much whiter and brighter, and the sort of colour that you would not expect to see until much later in the C19. In fact I think this one dates to somewhere in the early C20, possibly.
As far as the star cut goes, I understand that earlier styles showed wider/broader arms, and in fact each mitre was formed by two separate cuts - thus giving, often, an unequal symmetry to the points. This can be seem clearly in the second of my pictures, where the points in the top of the picture show clearly the lop-sided shapes. Stars cuts that are 'too good to be true' and with finer more narrow arms are usually much later. In the second picture you will also see bubbles and stones in the foot.
Contrary to what you might think, genuine old pieces often have moulded pedestal type feet (sometimes with a hollow underside) - almost slightly crude in looks - paradoxically supporting a beautifully cut urn shaped body.
Please understand that I'm the least expert on this sort of glass, but my conclusion regarding your example would be..........
the colour is bright and very white - no stones or ash - quite finely cut star pattern.............suggesting a more modern piece from somewhere in the late C19 or C20.
For what it's worth my opinion is that this is either British or Continent of Europe - but not possibly Irish.
Your use of the word 'flint' as terminology for lead glass will probably confuse most people this side of the pond ;) Correctly, in Europe, 'flint' was used historically to describe clear glass which, instead of having sand as its main constituent, used intstead crushed flint stones. If you have access to Newman's dictionary you can read a very good descripiton of why the expression 'flint glass' is a misnomer for C19 and C20 lead glass - too long for me to include here.
Historically, I think, flint stones provided a cleaner form of silica than using available sand, and saved importing pebbles from the Italians - although presumably since it is all silica then the melt temperatue would be the same (just depends on the type of flux).
It is more correct to now describe the pieces of glass which we have been discussing as simply lead crystal.
However, Kelli, your piece is very attractive and very worth keeping, and I just wish there were more folk on the GMB who might perhaps add something to your request :)
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Paul,
Ahhh! What a difference in the coloring of the glass - your photos have really helped me in my sleuthing on this piece. Along with the differences in the treatment of the foot, the clarity of the glass leads me to believe that I should be looking more at early American makers, from near Pittsburg, perhaps Bakewell Pears or similar. They employed many Irish and English glass cutters, which could explain the similarity in style/cutting and the rolled edge as well.
Then again I may never figure it out, but it sure is fun trying. :)
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Kelli
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Amazing the information that is "out there" if you have time to dig.
Note this article from the NAGC bulletin, regarding the early designs of Bakewell Pears being resurrected in the 1880s by Boston and Sandwich. We get closer, I think. ;)
http://iansimmonds.com/files/active/0/GCB%20201%20Not%20Bakewell.pdf
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this illustrates the point I think that if you are faced with a cold non-photographic image - and you aren't lucky enough to have the right catalogue - you will sink into the mire. Experience is needed - by visiting museums - plus handling pieces, to get a feel for the colour, and intrinsic make up of the metal. Of course, it would be unfair to ask someone to date a piece simply from these pictures. There's nothing new under the sun, at least as far as design is concerned, and an intuitive knowledge becomes essential to try and see through later copies of earlier originals.
It would be very interesting to know the colour of the glass of this Fryer pitcher, as compared to the ealier pieces from Bakewell.
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Paul, I couldn't agree more - flat images are no substitute for in-person viewing of glass, with natural lighting. I'd love to visit the Sandwich Glass Museum, or the Corning - just isn't in the cards any time soon.
We're out in the "wild, wild West" of New Mexico, lol - not too many museums in our area have reputable examples of what I need to see.
Visits back East are on my "Bucket List", for sure. :)
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Kelli, I'll tweak the topic title for you to see if we can attract the attention of one of the American glass collectors...
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Anne, thanks very much :)