Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: glassobsessed on January 19, 2012, 05:42:08 PM

Title: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: glassobsessed on January 19, 2012, 05:42:08 PM
Christine mentioned in another thread: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,43181.msg240777.html#msg240777

Could this be a curved version mentioned on page 435 of Hajdamach British Glass 1800-1914? There is what I assume to be a Registered Design number engraved on the bottom but I am having trouble deciding what the number is, possibly 54494 or ? Can't say I have seen an Rd number engraved like that before, was it usual for blown items?

It measures 7" or 18cm long.

John
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: ahremck on January 19, 2012, 11:36:30 PM
Just a thought.  Holmegaard signed small items Hg or Hd at times.  I wonder if Rd = Reidel or something similar.  Also if it were a registered design number as low as that it would surely look very old-fashianed indeed.  I would be trying for a Scandinavian Glass works whose name started with an R and ended with a d - nothing springs to mind instantly, good luck.

Ross
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: Anne on January 19, 2012, 11:58:23 PM
Hand numbered items are around yes, not so commonly seen as moulded or stamped numbers for sure. There's a nice example of a hand-applied lozenge mark in GlassGallery here: http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-11719

The number yours appears to carry isn't listed on the Great Glass website or Thompson (which is pressed glass anyhow.) But the number dates from 1886.  Gulliver's book, referred to by Bernard in the linked image above, might give the answer if someone can check it for you. Sadly it's not one I own as yet, or I'd look for you, John.
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: Bernard C on January 20, 2012, 03:11:17 AM
Quote from: Anne on January 19, 2012, 11:58:23 PM
...   Thompson (which is pressed glass anyhow.)    ...

Anne — Oh no it isn't.   Thompson includes all the class 3 registrations they found from 1842 to the end of February 1908, except that, for reasons of space, she edited out designs from 1884 onwards "not likely to be encountered in the study of household glass".   My experience is that most of the missing registrations seem to be bottles.   Surprisingly all the pavement light and insulator registrations we've found in that 1884–1908 period are in Thompson.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 20, 2012, 07:35:00 AM
I would say it was definitely Webb "posy rings straight and curved" and that the number was 54494
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: glassobsessed on January 20, 2012, 09:15:11 AM
My thanks to everyone who has commented, it is much appreciated.

I did try looking up the number but ended up a little confused by the site I found (National Archives). I have used the Great Glass site before, no idea why I did not look there this time as the information presented is straightforward....

Anne, please feel free to use any of these photos if you wish to add them to the Registered Designs album: http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=763

John
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: Bernard C on January 20, 2012, 09:36:26 AM
John — The two similar Webb registrations shown in Gulliver are 100456 of May 19, 1888 and 269928 of January 27, 1896.   Neither are exactly the same.   There seem to be several variations on this theme.   I wouldn't have expected any one glassworks to have made several slightly different versions — this indicates to me that it's more likely that several glassworks were making them.

I wouldn't be surprised if 54494 (or possibly 154494) turns out to be class 4, earthenware, rather than class 3, glass.

As for engraved design registration numbers and lozenges, they're not particularly common.   I usually have about half a dozen examples on my stand at the two big glass fairs, and I'm always happy to show them to anyone so long as I'm not otherwise busy.   Here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,22938.0.html)'s another example.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: glassobsessed on January 20, 2012, 01:15:27 PM
Thanks for taking a look in Gulliver Bernard.
I bet nearly every glassworks made something similar, after all they were all supplying essentially the same market and would make whatever was popular at the time and selling well. Economic necessity....

A lovely condiment set Bernard, very modern design for it's day and nice to see other blown items with an engraved Rd number. I had not seen that thread until recently - it dates from a month or two before I joined this forum and I have not bumped into it while searching.

John
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: Bernard C on January 20, 2012, 02:13:25 PM
John — glad to help.   BTW my cruet was pressed, not blown, hence Ray Annenberg's interest in it.   Note the inside corners at the base of the four cruets, impossible if blown.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: glassobsessed on January 20, 2012, 02:52:28 PM
They look mould blown to me Bernard, how would the plunger get in and out to form the shape? Bases with a similar form can be seen on the mould blown range of (square) vases from Dartington Glass, at least, I assume they were mould blown....

John
Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
Post by: Bernard C on January 20, 2012, 03:37:20 PM
John — memory playing tricks on me.   At the time I said:

  • All four glass items were hand made, blown using the same shape mould, attached to the pontil rod, then the top hand-worked to the individual shape required.

    • If you zoom out on the little registration number image, you will see that the inside bottom corners are almost perfect 3-D right angles, indicative of a very high standard of production.   Like you, I can't see how they could have been pressed unless they were made like Chippendale bottles in two pieces and joined.   But there's no trace of that.   So I was probably right at the time.

    Thanks for correcting me.

    BTW some of the early Manchester cruet bottles were pressed, like the one illustrated on p.50 of Thompson.   What came out of the press was a tall vase shape, about twice the height of the height of the shoulders.   The neck and rim was hot worked from this extra glass.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
    Post by: glassobsessed on January 20, 2012, 04:22:36 PM
    Quote from: Bernard C on January 20, 2012, 03:37:20 PM
    made like Chippendale bottles in two pieces and joined
    That sounds like Incalmo. ;D

    The more I learn, the less I realise I know....

    John
    Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
    Post by: Anne on January 21, 2012, 01:40:06 AM
    Quote from: Bernard C on January 20, 2012, 03:11:17 AM
    Anne — Oh no it isn't.   Thompson includes all the class 3 registrations they found from 1842 to the end of February 1908, except that, for reasons of space, she edited out designs from 1884 onwards "not likely to be encountered in the study of household glass".   My experience is that most of the missing registrations seem to be bottles.   Surprisingly all the pavement light and insulator registrations we've found in that 1884–1908 period are in Thompson.

    Bernard C.  8)

    ;D Bernard, I was referring to the fact that the Thompson book was about pressed glass, and therefore in a shorthand way indicating that it may not necessarily cover Paul's piece.

    And aren't pavement lights and insulators made from pressed glass anyhow? If not, how please, as I'd assumed (I know, never assume!) that they would be. Apologies to Paul for slightly hijacking his topic. ;)
    Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
    Post by: Bernard C on January 21, 2012, 04:07:45 AM
    Anne — No No No.   Thompson suffers from the most misleading title of any glass book worldwide.   It's nothing to do with pressed glass.   It is fundamentally to do with registered designs, not the same thing at all.   What Thompson then did in the book and the supplement was to produce detailed editorial on glassworks with significant numbers of registered designs.   As the majority of registered designs were for pressed glass, most of her editorial discusses pressed glass and the big Manchester and northeastern glassworks producing it.   However the work includes factory summaries on Walsh, Richardson, Pargeter, Stuart, Boulton & Mills, and Thomas Webb, all with either very few pressed glass registrations or none at all.

    Jenny Thompson did not use method of manufacture as her criterion for editing the 1884–1908 list, solely designs "not likely to be encountered in the study of household glass".   Hence my surprise at pavement lights and insulators being retained.   I think she kept any registration that looked interesting or unusual.

    Bernard C.  8)   
    Title: Re: Posy ring with prunts and RD number
    Post by: glassobsessed on January 21, 2012, 10:18:18 AM
    It is conceivable that pavement lights could be cast but I think much better optical properties would be achieved by pressing. The (deck) lights I have here certainly look pressed to me, no sign of subsequent grinding and polishing which I think would be desirable if they had been cast.

    Some photos of them and some pavement lights here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,30721.0.html

    John