Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: freeblown on March 07, 2012, 12:55:31 AM
-
Hi everybody,
I have an interesting decanter and was wondering if anybody else in the UK has seen one like it. I am in the USA so I am not sure how many of these are out there. It's an amethyst colored, lead glass shaft and globe shaped decanter with a half post neck and nipt diamond design. I can find reference to bottles of this type in non lead glass and being Dutch but they all have a tooled lip and therefore a pontil on the bottom whereas my bottle has a ground lip and therefore no pontil on the bottom.
I can only find one reference to another one of these bottles like mine and it is in a museum in Australia. Here is a link to it - http://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/col/work/14127
They date theirs at circa 1690 and English. The lip on theirs is clearly ground and looks just like the lip on my decanter. I also noticed that they write under "medium" glass, brass and cork yet they don't show their bottle with the presumably brass and cork stopper so I don't know if my stopper matches theirs or not. My stopper appears to be cast brass or bronze with gold ormolu on it. There is a crown top center. Underneath the stopper there is a threaded rod to accept a cork and a hand cut square nut to hold the cork in place.So has anybody seen one of these bottles in lead glass like this? Or has anybody seen the same metal stopper on my decanter on anything else? Thanks for your input. Rob G.
-
Just a few thoughts Rob to start this off, and hopefully this will encourage the knowledgable people to come in.
There is a 'shaft and globe' example shown in Douglas Ash's 'English Drinking Glasses & Decanters' (1680 - 1830) - in flint (and apparently in the British Musueum - although now possibly in the V.& A), which is dated A shorter neck than yours, and with what may be the more common(!) application of 'nipt diamond waies' - although these may well have varied in style. The neck ring is presumably a left over from the bottles that the decanter superceded, as anchor for the string, and perhaps your eleborate brass stopper was a later addition. The example in Ash is shown without a stopper/cork, and rests on a rim foot, although looking at your decanter, what I'm seeing suggests a standard non-footed base. Coincidentally, it seems that the word decanter came into use in about the 1690's
According to this author, all flint decanters at this period had a 'kick' in the base (in common with serving bottles) - to provide a stable base plus somewhere to hide the pontil mark - although I appreciate you are saying that as your has a ground top then there won't be a pontil.
In Bickerton - under coloured glasses - there is a single 'purple' wine glass dated (probably by the V.& A.) to 1690 - and against which Bickerton has added an exclamation mark in brackets. In the Georgian (British) period - 1740 plus, purple/amethyst was a not uncommon colour (now very collectible) - but how far back prior to that period it goes I don't know. Am sure that Peter (oldglassman) might like to answer that.
You can of course contact the V.& A. museum in London, who are usually very helpful - even if you do sometimes have to wait for a week or two for the answer.
-
...........which is dated to about 1690.
-
Thank you Paul.
I have written to the museum in Australia to see if my brass and cork stopper is a match to theirs. The way my bottle is finished with the finely ground lip, I feel confident it was intended for some kind of stopper besides a plain cork. I also feel my stopper is very early for I have found some similar looking examples on other late 17th century bottles from both France and Germany. Hopefully I will get some more information from the museum in AU. Maybe I'll send a picture of my bottle to the V&A as well. Thanks again for your input, Robert
-
I have heard back from the Museum in Australia and they have provided a picture of their stopper. It is very similar to mine but theirs has a different cypher - a C next to a backwards C under the crown. My stopper has an S over a Backwards S. I think this at least shows that both these bottles have their original stoppers. Now I must try to figure out what the cypher represents and that should be able to help date the bottle more accurately. Attached is a black and white image from the Australia museum and a close up of my stopper. Anybody out there know cyphers?
-
Could it be that the "c" and the "s" are ways of matching decanters to stoppers, like they have also done with numbers?
Carolyn
-
I could be very wrong, but wouldn't have thought that to be a plausible answer - there is no evidence on the body of the decanter to indicate a connection with any particular stopper - however, out of interest I'd be very keen to know what might be the earliest date that matching/tie Nos. were in fact introduced for decanters - I'd bet it was later than this date though.
It's possible that with this C17 neck ring (used for tying and keeping the corks in place on bottles), these ornate stoppers were made at a later date - although bearing in mind the apparent rarity of amethyst decanters maybe things like this were made just for those who possessed crests and cyphers :)
-
Carolyn
[/quote]Could it be that the "c" and the "s" are ways of matching decanters to stoppers, like they have also done with numbers?
Carolyn
I don't think so Carolyn because these stoppers are not fitted for they have a cork on the inside. Plus, the work involved to both design and cast these open work stoppers is far too great for such a purpose.
-
I could be very wrong, but wouldn't have thought that to be a plausible answer - there is no evidence on the body of the decanter to indicate a connection with any particular stopper - however, out of interest I'd be very keen to know what might be the earliest date that matching/tie Nos. were in fact introduced for decanters - I'd bet it was later than this date though.
It's possible that with this C17 neck ring (used for tying and keeping the corks in place on bottles), these ornate stoppers were made at a later date - although bearing in mind the apparent rarity of amethyst decanters maybe things like this were made just for those who possessed crests and cyphers :)
I too though it possible my stopper was not original to my decanter when I only knew of my one decanter but when two of these rare shaft and globe decanters on opposite sides of the globe both turn up with similar and very unusual cyphered stoppers, I think the odds of these stoppers being independently married to these bottles at some later date is very very remote.
-
well I certainly agree with your logic Rob.
-
Hi ,
I have been following this thread with interrest, but !!! was hoping that i would not be the first to cast some doubt on this decanter being 17th century,so here we go as usual with both feet. though as always will be more than happy to be proven wrong ,
Firstly as to the colour , this is not a problem ,if we assume that cobalt Oxide was used to obtain this colour , this has been used in glass for centuries,the glass mentioned in the V&A is thought by current scholars to possibly come from Formicas glass house in Dublin c 1690, it is also interresting to note that my Dublin Goblet has a slight blue tint which it is suggested ( Colin Brain Glass Cone 97) is from the use of cobalt oxide as a decolourant,these decolourants were not needed in early flint glass but reversion to the use of sand instead of flint and the increasing level of lead oxide in the batch led to a need to reintroduce something that counteracted an unappealing bown tint .
now to the bottle, I have never encountered a bottle of this type from the 17thc that has no pontil mark and a ground top rim , all those I have seen and had over the years have had as expected the normal rough pontil and fire polished rim , a ground rim is also something I have never encountered on any items of english make from the 17th or 18th c ,the form to me is also a little odd , i think this has already been mentioned , the neck seems a little tall in comparison to all the others I have seen and also the base of the neck at the globe part seems to conflict with recorded examples, the un nipped section flaring out from the bottom of the neck to the start of the decoration being a lot larger than normal,
Now !!! I see that a parralel has been found in the Australian museum, but,are we to accept that they are correct in thier attribution,could they have merely accepted the information as correct when the item was donated to them ? I am sure we could all point out many errors in attribution to museum held pieces.
there we go !! jumped in with both feet again , though I hope this will stimulate some further thought on this interresting item , if Rob G would like to send me some detailed photos of the decanter i will happily, with permission, send them to some colleages who have more experience in these bottles and see what comes up.
the bottle shown below is to my mind a typical lead example from c 1690
Cheers,
Peter.
-
Thank you very much for your input Peter. Perhaps the decanter is later than 17th century. This is why I am now determined to see if I can figure out who the cypher on the stopper represents.
I also agree that the ground lip is atypical for a bottle of this type with these two being the only ones know to me, however if these were in fact made for nobility as the fancy ormolu stoppers suggest, it is clearly a finer quality product to not have an ugly pontil scar on the base of the decanter and it makes perfect sense to me that they would finish the lip this way. It also appears that the grinding on the top of the lip is rather fine, not to the point of being as polished as uncut glass but a very fine satin type finish. This leads me to concur that where ever this decanter was made was probably a place that was also cutting or engraving glass.
I would be happy to e-mail you some pictures and appreciate very much your willingness to show them. Even if your friends have not seen the decanter, perhaps they have seen a related stopper on something else that could help to date this decanter.
Robert
-
which was why I commented............
"In Bickerton - under coloured glasses - there is a single 'purple' wine glass dated (probably by the V.& A.) to 1690 - and against which Bickerton has added an exclamation mark in brackets. In the Georgian (British) period - 1740 plus, purple/amethyst was a not uncommon colour (now very collectible) - but how far back prior to that period it goes I don't know. Am sure that Peter (oldglassman) might like to answer that. ".
I don't have your knowledge on late C17 glass - so I was using a little subtlety to draw attention to Bickerton's exclamation mark which he appears to use to cast serious doubt on the date quoted by the V.& A. Exclamation marks are not a mild form of censure, usually.
However, are you now saying that current thought DOES consider that this particular amethyst/purple drinking glass - shown in Bickerton - to be ex Dublin 1690? In other words this colour is now believed to be a known genuine late C17 colour.
from what I understand it was the slight blue tint (cobalt decolouriser) which gave rise to Hartshorne's comments on Waterford glass, which then caused so much controversy - so maybe he was partly right - his mistake was to have used the word Waterford in particular.
-
HI,
"are you now saying that current thought DOES consider that this particular amethyst/purple drinking glass - shown in Bickerton - to be ex Dublin 1690? In other words this colour is now believed to be a known genuine late C17 colour."
Yes I am saying that with regard to the V&A glass,(Dublin c 1690) re the colour it has long been accepted that these colours, purple amethyst etc were being used for a very long time for both drinking glasses and the likes of decanters , you will find many examples of 16th and 17thc drinking glasses,bowls and decanters from Venice and the Netherlands using these colours ,see pic below of a late 16th early 17thc winged glass stem
Rob,
I dont really think its a case of this item being made for the nobility therefor having a tidier base and rim , its a matter of production teckniques employed at the time ,I have seen several of these bottle types in both lead , non lead , coloured and clear with both gold and silver mounts dating from the 17th c , but they are still made in the accepted method for the day .
cheers ,
Peter.
-
Peter, here are two links to higher resolution images. Robert
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/IMG_0532.jpg
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/IMG_0533.jpg
-
Hi ,
Thanks Rob , I have saved those and will see if I can get anything to add .
Cheers ,
Peter.
-
Here is a French 17th century decanter with similar kind of stopper.
-
This is going a bit off topic but I have also found another 17th century shaft and globe type decanter with a gold ormolu stopper, however the bottle does have a pontil mark for the metal ring that fits onto the lip of the bottle was made in one piece and it appears that they must have flared the lip into this ring when it was applied to the bottle mouth while holding the bottle with the pontil rod. I'm not sure what country this one is from but if I had to guess I would say France.
Here are a few links to good quality pictures of it:
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/P1010601-1.jpg
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/P1010603-1.jpg
-
thanks Peter - and like yourself I'm quite familiar with images of purple/amethyst colours "having been used for a very long time" with regard to glass from the Continent and Venice - although since we are making the assumption that this piece is British/Irish - then it was to these areas of manufacture that I was referring, and not overseas. Judging by the lack British/Irish examples in this colour - on C17 wares - then I was having a little trouble seeing this as a really early date line of British manufacture. :)
-
Hi ,
yes Paul I understand what you are saying,the Dublin attribution for the V&A glass is based(I think) more on other features than its colour ,there is as you say a lack of coloured glass attributed to England with a definate 17thc date,the thoughts behind this is that at this time the English glass houses were striving to produce a clear and stable lead glass,I am sure the recipies to produce coloured glass were well known to the English makers in the 17thc but their eyes were elsewere,both Formica in Dublin and DaCosta who worked with Ravenscroft on the new lead metal came from Holland and both had their patents granted for new lead glass within a year or so of each other , some of Formicas fragments which have been analysed and found to be identicle to Ravenscroft metal,oooooops babbling again , anyway ,I think coloured glass suffered due to the work on clear lead glass.
cheers ,
Peter.
-
sincere thanks Peter for your explanation :)
-
It may be of interest to comment that whilst looking through other images of coloured table glass etc..........I notice that there was another style of decoration similar to 'nipt diamond waies', and which was used rather later in the C18 (as opposed to the late C17).
There are Bristol blue bonnet glasses and cream jugs from the latter part of the C18 which were decorated with something called a 'trellis moulded pattern' - similar to NDW but perhaps less proud on the surface, and with more openely spaced diamonds - but maybe similar enough to cause confusion.
This later date would fit more appropriately with the purple/amethyst colour, although the suggestion of a later date for this piece is my personal opinion only (and could be very dodgy).
-
Just to clarify, the diamonds on this decanter are hand nipped and are not made in a diamond patterned mold. The mold itself had pronounced vertical ribbing that was then pinched or nipped to form the diamonds. If I am not mistaken Paul, the trellis moulded pattern has the diamond pattern already in the mold. You are probably far more familiar with 18th century Bristol glass than I am but I would not think that they would have used the German half post method in Bristol in the late 18th century as is how this decanter is made - unless they were purposley copying an earlier style which I guess is possible.
Robert
-
quote from Robert........."You are probably far more familiar with 18th century Bristol glass than I am"...........I only wish I was Robert :) Thanks for the clarification re the hand nipping of the diamonds. Let's hope that Peter is able to add more information now he has your pictures.
-
Hi ,
2 replies have been received ,and both basically said the same thing,
Based on the info re lack of pontil and ground rim along with the photos.
Although it is not possible to be 100% certain without actually having the item in the hand, the likely hood is that both the decanters are mid to late 19thc revival pieces and probably German in origin,both had nothing to add re the stoppers.
Both contacts are very long established dealers in 17thc glass,so this would seem to confirm my original suspicions on this decanter.
Rob ! you could if you wish contact Corning Museum of Glass ,giving them the same information and photos and see what they say ,or if you are close, send it to them,I would suggest contacting them first,if the current curator is unable to give his own opinion I am sure he will pass it on, possibly to Dwight Lanmon ,ex curator of glass and seek his opinion. I suspect though the result could be very much the same as above.
Cheers,
Peter.
-
Thanks for your efforts Peter. A few questions come to my mind. Pertaining to the stopper, if this were a mid to late 19th century repro would they really be going to the trouble making custom ormolu stoppers with different cyphers as is the case between my stopper and the stopper on the decanter in the AU museum? Also, the thin threaded shaft on the inside of the stopper that the cork slips onto is hand threaded and the tiny square nut that screws onto it is hand cut. It would seem to me that by the mid to late 19th century these parts would have been machined and not made by hand for a reproduction decanter. The gold ormolu is also quite thick, much thicker than what is usually seen on later 19th century plated wares suggesting it was applied using the old mercury method of applying the gold.
In my experience reproductions also tend to be more common. I have been a glass hound a very long time and the only other one I have found is the one in the AU museum. I will certainly take your advice (eventually) Peter and get the decanter over to Corning. I am also wondering if determining the chemical composition of the glass would be of any use. There may be ingredients found in later glass that are not found in earlier glass and that could help to date this piece.
Again, thank you very much for your efforts.
Robert
-
Hi,
" In my experience reproductions also tend to be more common. I have been a glass hound a very long time and the only other one I have found is the one in the AU museum."
I have found the reverse to be more common,if decanters with the features of yours(no pontil and cut rim) were period , being very desirable items they would probably be documented or at least known by those who have handled many of them ,but who knows ,till its in the hands of someone with the knowledge to say yes or no its up in the air.
"I am also wondering if determining the chemical composition of the glass would be of any use"
This would probably help but would I believe require a piece of glass to be removed ,crushed up then subjected to analysis, not something i would want to go ahead with whether real or repro.
Good luck in the future trying to get to the bottom of this 1 and please let us know what the results are .
Cheers ,
Peter.
-
Will let you know what I find out Peter. I do know that the chemical composition of glass can be determined in a non invasive way using X-ray flourescence. They have the ability to do this at Winterthur Museum in Deleware. I am not sure what the cost is though. I have also heard that if the glass has a lot of lead in it, the lead masks the other elements from being determined using XRF so that technique may not work with this decanter if it is lead glass.
Peter, You may find this book of interest if you don't already have it - Art of Glass Glass in the Collection of the National Gallery of Victoria It is of the glass collection in the museum that has the decanter like mine. They have an extensive collection. Some of this book on the collection can be read on line here - http://books.google.com/books?id=laWX3BnLENgC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=Art+of+Glass+Glass+in+the+Collection+of+the+National+Gallery+of+Victoria&source=bl&ots=sOMHr_uKFO&sig=ZITqlA0UQ5Men0Qbfs-ht5n9ZNI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iCZvT7TtPKai2gX04vnxAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Art%20of%20Glass%20Glass%20in%20the%20Collection%20of%20the%20National%20Gallery%20of%20Victoria&f=false
It says on page 10 that their collection was examined by "eminent Keeper of Ceramics and Glass at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, Robert J Charlston." One would think he would have told them of a reproduction were he to view this "English" bottle and think it a reproduction. The bottle was part of the collection when he went there in 1977.
Robert
-
Below text was recieved from the V&A Museum Ceramics and Glass dept. concerning the decanter:
"Thank you for your e-mail, which we must apologise for not having
replied to sooner.
Although it is quite difficult to tell from a photograph, your bottle
looks Dutch or possibly English, dating from the 17th Century. In
that period lead glass was almost certainly made in the Netherlands, and
although this type of bottle was also made in the 18th Century, the
shape of your piece looks earlier.
I cannot be sure that the mount and stopper are contemporary with the
bottle, but it is certainly possible.
I hope that this information is of some inerest to you."
Yours sincerely,
Ceramics and Glass Collection
Victoria and Albert Museum
-
HI Rob ,
yes it's all very interresting when you start to dig around ,however was the V&A aware of the construction method ?,this to me and to those I have spoken to is the anomaly , all have agreed that they have no knowledge of late 17th c bottles of this form being made without having a pontil mark and having a cut rim , I would return to them with this question .
One of the replies to me ,did mention Howard Phillips ,mentioned in the museum paper linked to,and his involvement in supplying glass to collectors and museums in Australia , this did not change his current opinion of the decanter !!!!!!
I hope you take the trouble to have it looked at by as many current scholars as you can , if indeed it is a period piece then it really would be rather special if indeed it was made in this manner in the late 17thc.
Good luck with the hunt , it's always fun .
Cheers ,
Peter.
oooops forgot to ask, any chance of a shot of the underneath of the decanter?
-
Hi Peter,
I'll try to post a picture of the bottom for you in a day or two.
Yes, the V&A was aware of the ground lip, no pontil and the bottle being lead glass.
Just one more thought - if this and the other decanter in AU are reproductions then what are they reproductions of? As you say, you don't know of any done with the ground lip like this so why would they produce them in an atypical manner with a ground lip if these were supposed to be reproductions? Clearly, they could have fire polished the lip if they wanted to and made these bottles consistent with the typical shaft and globe nipt diamond bottles we are used to seeing. I think the lip was ground to make a finer quality product, consistent with the fancy ormolu cyphered stoppers that both these decanters have and that the reproduction of something was not their objective. I know of no other bottles of this type with this kind of fancy stopper. If these bottles were known with this kind of fancy ormolu cyphered stopper having a tooled lip and a pontiled base I would be more skeptical about this one and the one in AU. In my experience, reproductions do not go above and beyond the quality of the originals they are attempting to reproduce. This bottle is atypical in the fancy ormolu stopper, the lip finish and it being made from lead glass so to me this can't be a reproduction because it is just too different from the typical bottle of this type. I think if anything they may be a bit later, done some time in the 18th century perhaps.
I was also thinking of trying to contact Andy McConnell who wrote a very good book on decanters. If these are reproductions, the odds are he has seen some of them in doing his extensive research. Was he by chance one of the people you contacted Peter?
Robert
-
Hi ,
" If these bottles were known with this kind of fancy ormolu cyphered stopper having a tooled lip and a pontiled base I would be more skeptical about this one and the one in AU."
this is an extract from the Glass in the Rijksmuseum Catalogue page 189, description is attached to what in essence is an identical bottle/decanter as yours with mount and stopper , not like yours though , the pontil mark is clearly visible through the glass which is brightly lit
A quarter of the bottles had a silveren beslach (silver mount),several others have a messink vergulde beslage (gilt bronze mount )or a "koperen vergulde dop (gilt copper stopper),
as you can see from the above the 17thc bottle are well known with decorative stoppers along the lines of yours ,
No I did not contact Andy , and i will be interrested to see what he has to say about it,
I am beginning to feel a little like the bad guy in this thread , I hope you will take my comments in the spirit that they are meant , as it is only by questioning anomaly's can you end up with answers , if the result is that I am completely wrong in my observations re pontil mark and ground rim being odd for the period , then I for one will be very pleased both for you and for me , something new to me will be learned .
Cheers ,
Peter.
ps , I am also surprised that no other members of the forum have given any suggestions
pps , I have just re read this , "I think if anything they may be a bit later, done some time in the 18th century perhaps."
This is what i have been trying to say all along that it is probably a later copy of a 17thc decanter ,for all the reasons I gave ,and would go so far as say that 19thc is also a possibility ,
so have we now got crossed wires , my comments all along were that it was not 17thc ?????
and that the ground top would indicate continental manufacture,not English ??
-
re your ps Peter - the main reason, possibly, that other people have been backward in coming forward is that, aside from older glass not being so fashionable to collect (how many people here collect older drinking glasses for example?) - there is the very real problem that quality C17 and C18 glass costs serious money. Working from a distance on this subject so to speak, may I come back to my earlier comments on 18/3 regarding the Bristol blue bonnet glasses etc. that are catalogued and pictured as having trellis moulded pattern (these pieces were in the Seddon collection originally).
I hope that Robert won't think me completely tactless, but I'm still having trouble seeing his decoration as real NDW - doesn't have the physical appearance of the flint example which Peter posted, and other genuine examples I've seen in the books. To the best of my knowledge, the original C17 NDW decoration was applied as separate threading. Is it out of the question entirely Robert that on your example the decoration might in fact be created from a mould?
Had we established that Robert's decanter is in fact lead glass? If it were 'flicked' Robert do you hear the lead glass 'ring'?
Have we also got round the question of whether this purple colour was being used for decanters in the latter part of the C17.
Just a personal reflection, but I'm seeing the decoration as being too neat - not the naive sort of look that came from the late C17, perhaps.
-
Hi Paul,
"older glass not being so fashionable to collect"
LOL I know an awful lot of dedicated 17thc and 18thc collectors that would disagree with this .
"there is the very real problem that quality C17 and C18 glass costs serious money."
unfortunately yes it is a problem for some who like older glass and cant afford it ,I would like a Stradivarius , but cant afford 1 but it does not seem to be a problem as you call it for those who can .
"To the best of my knowledge, the original C17 NDW decoration was applied as separate threading."
To the best of my knowledge NDW was created on bottles with the use of a mould , the uprights then being pinched , yes you will also see on some early drinking glasses and tankards some which have moulded NDW and above that trailed glass that has been pinched into chains , strictly speaking those nipped trails forming chains are to me not NDW.
"Have we also got round the question of whether this purple colour was being used for decanters in the latter part of the C17."
yes decanters of this type and in this colour are well documented.
cheers ,
Peter.
-
quotes from Peter............
"LOL I know an awful lot of dedicated 17thc and 18thc collectors that would disagree with this".........that may be so outside the walls of the GMB...........but since it was the GMB that you were referring to when castigating members for not commenting, then it was of the GMB that I was speaking when suggesting that few members collected older glass :) Peter, can you not persuade your affluent friends to join the GMB ;)
"but it does not seem to be a problem as you call it for those who can" - rather self-evident, and blindingly obvious ;)
In fact, I occasionally get very close to some of the most rare and desirable C16 and C17 pieces - trouble is they all belong to someone else, and there is a rather thick sheet of glass between them and me........I'm speaking of the V.& A. as you might guess, and I do get there every 6 - 8 weeks just to drool and lament my inadequate circumstances.
Of course, I would defer to your judgment on this sort of material any day Peter, and thanks for the corrections - and can we assume that in view of your most recent appraisal of the later date for this piece, then correctly should we not call Robert's decoration NDW - or am I wrong again, and it's o.k. to continue to do so?
Paul S. :)
-
HI Paul,
"castigating members for not commenting"
No castigation intended just surprise there seems to be no other members with an interrest in 17th c glass,be they collectors/dealers /researchers.
"and can we assume that in view of your most recent appraisal of the later date for this piece,"
Sorry Paul but it has been my thought from my first post that this decanter is not 17thc, which was the original Post query.
I see no reason why this decanter does not have NDW even if a revival piece , the way it was produced with a mould and nipped is the same whenever it was done , the difference with this 1 is the lack of pontil and cut top rim , so yes I would say it had NDW, A bit like a multispiral air twist made by Stuarts in the 20thc, a copy of an 18thc style is still a multispiral airtwist.
I envy your ability to get to the V&A so regularly,that's a real treat , however next time you visit look in there cabinet of "Fakes" and see if you can spot something that is illustrated in Bless , a very very rare glass !!!!!!?????, lol but that's another story .
cheers ,
Peter.
-
Sorry Paul but it has been my thought from my first post that this decanter is not 17thc, which was the original Post query.
Actually the original question was just if anybody has seen these decanters in lead glass with a ground lip or if anybody has seen this particular kind of stopper on anything else.
"So has anybody seen one of these bottles in lead glass like this? Or has anybody seen the same metal stopper on my decanter on anything else? "
So I guess the answer is no.
-
"Actually the original question was just if anybody has seen these decanters in lead glass with a ground lip"
with this title to the post , " Re: 17th century nipt diamond shaft and globe decanter".on which i based my responses.
Peter.
-
Peter - assume you referring to Joseph Bles "Rare English Glasses of the C17 and C18" - published (Boston - Mass.) 1925 - is there a modern reprint do you know. Not one I have - no matter how many books I have, it always seems there is another one that I need :) thanks
-
HI Paul ,
Yes that's the one ,unfortunately there is not a modern reprint , originally there were 750 printed for the UK market and 150 allocated to the US market,also 100 leather bound deluxe editions, not sure though if both the UK editions and the US editions were printed in the US or here,but essentially they are the same ,a very large book with some wonderful treasures in it , prices vary a lot depending on condition and which version , the deluxe of course costing the most ,
Cheers ,
Peter.
-
Here is the shot of the bottom - http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/IMG_0543.jpg
Here is a shot of the lip - http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/IMG_0541.jpg
-
thanks Peter.
-
I've been having a look at the crowns on the stoppers and the one in Australia looks like a Ducal Crown of the Holy Roman Emipre (central Europe). The crown on yours looks like a French Ducal Crown from the 'Ancien Regime'. Here is a link to a basic reference to these crowns ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_(heraldry) This link doesn't quite work so you have to click on 'Do you mean .... Crown (heraldry) ' and then you can see the crowns !
Scroll down to see examples. Ta Mike ...very interesting thread !!.....not an expert on crowns but have been trying to reseach an engraved crest on some glasses and its a minefield !!
-
Thank you very much Mike. The French Ducal Crown does indeed look very similar. Now if I can only find the cypher...
Thanks again,
Robert
-
Here are some French hallmarks from the 'Ancien Regime' ...they follow the same pattern a crown above a letter.....note the shape of the crowns on the hallmarks for the 18th century , some are similar in shape to the example in Australia .
http://www.silvercollection.it/frenchhallmarksold.html
-
Thanks for the link Mike.
Rob
-
It's a pleasure Rob, ....don't quote me on this ;).... but I don't think English crowns of the period had this distinctive style and shape (the one in Australia)....I could be wrong & it may be a red herring ....but if the stopper is French (& yours looks like a French ducal) then it could be that the glass is also French...but I can't comment on the glass !
Best of luck with your investigations ! Ta, Mike.
-
Here is another link to an actual print from 1783.
It clearly shows the crown in question is French (or perhaps Spanish) but given your crown is also most probably French ...then I am almost certain the stoppers are French ! ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1783-PRINT-HERALDRY-HELMETS-CROWNS-MITRE-CROISER-PLUME-OF-FEATHERS-KING-NAVAL-/140617089474?pt=UK_art_prints_GL&hash=item20bd6e81c2
Ta Mike.
-
HI ,
An update with a newly aquired Magnum 17th c NDW (nipped diamond waies) shaft and globe decanter in lead metal .
Cheers ,
Peter.
-
What a great bottle Peter! Thanks for posting the picture. I like the wavy band around the neck.
Check out this little blue pocket bottle I picked up. It is done in the half post method with nipt diamonds. It is of non-lead glass so it is probably a German or Alpine region bottle. Only 4 inches tall.
-
Congratulations Peter - marvelous piece :)
I have, in the past few days, had conversations with the glass and ceramics department at the V. & A., requesting their permission to use digital pictures, from their gallery, on the Glass Message Board - in a similar way that the National Archives have agreed we may use watermarked images from Kew. The reason being that with this thread in mind, I thought it a great shame that the public (the GMB in particular) didn't have access to on line images of their glass - which would have included an amethyst coloured Ravenscroft NDW decanter - which some of us have seen in their gallery exhibition. This exhibit may, or may not, have assisted this topic but would nonetheless have been an interesting comparison and is a great piece to see in any event (for those unable to reach the gallery in person). I have explained, in an email, the various reasons why we consider that glass collectors feel they are under-represented in terms of access to images (compared for example to the ceramics collectors), and have outlined briefly our agreement, with the trustees at Kew, to use watermarked images within the public domain.
Whether this request will be successful or not, I really don't know - but will keep fingers crossed for a positive outcome.
-
THat!!! is very nice,lovely little thing .
cheers ,
Peter.
ps great idea Paul , I hope someone with a brain reads the email .
-
Hi Peter and Paul,
I picked up another nipt diamond bottle and thought you would enjoy seeing it. it is much larger that the other pocket bottle, I would say it is about a full quart. It has had a pewter top plastered onto it at some point. I can see the neck from the inside and it looks all there for it goes right up to the top of the inside of the pewter piece. Would you leave this top on or take it off?
Robert
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/IMG_07862.jpg
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/IMG_07872.jpg
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/IMG_07882.jpg
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60/dusty999/IMG_07912.jpg
-
HI ,
Lovely bottle , to remove or not is always a hard call,if you are certain that everything is sound then I would but sometimes you can open a can of worms, a visit to a friendly local dentist for an x-ray would help you decide .
cheers ,
Peter.
-
thanks for sharing Robert - very desirable piece - I'm Mr. Green. :) My personal opinion would be to leave the top in situ - if nothing else it will show the full history of the piece - the glass and metalwork - and it adds interest - it can always be removed at a later date after you have weighed the thought more carefully, and come to a more definite decision. As Peter says, removal might incur problems.
Pleased to say that after some email discussions with the V. & A., they have agreed that we may use images of their glass gallery exhibits on the GMB - provided these are watermarked in a similar fashion to how we show the National Archive pictures.
Later today I will attach some pix of the amethyst NDW decanter/bottle which I photographed recently, at the V. & A. and which you may find of interest.
-
Pix attached of the V. & A. example of the Ravenscroft 'Nipt diamond Waies' amethyst bottle dated c. 1680. Hope of some interest, and of course a fabulous piece of glass. It goes without saying that pictures taken through the cabinet glass.
With grateful thanks to Roxanne Peters and Reino Liefkes at the V. & A. London for their permission and assistance in using these images. :)
-
Thank you Peter and Paul for your advice. I think for now I am just going to leave it as is. I'm not sure what an xray would do. Could it even look through pewter?
Rob
-
Nice pictures Paul! Thanks for sharing them. That decanter even has the inside gather pattern molded with vertical ribbing! Wow!
-
I don't know anything about old bottles,but I live in hope of finding one of these - I think they're beautiful.
m
-
antique pewter did apparently contain some lead, so don't know if this would give problems with the x-ray suggestion?
I think the colour makes this all the more desirable, and if you do live long enough to find one m, please give me first refusal ;).
-
Hi ,
Even with pewter that may contain a very small amount of lead an x-ray should outline the remaining glass under the pewter ,this would indicate if the screw top was added as a repair or as an afterthought by someone,I have found it very usefull a couple of times when faced with the same decision.
cheers ,
Peter.