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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on March 07, 2012, 03:31:03 PM

Title: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
Post by: Bernard C on March 07, 2012, 03:31:03 PM
Please see GlassGallery images with click to enlarge feature:

  • http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-16185

    • Overall height 17¼" 43.7cm, weight 4lb 1½oz 1857g, foot diameter 4¾" 12cm
    Stem and container height 11¼" 28.4cm, weight 2lb 10½oz 1214g
    Cover height 6½" 16.5cm, weight 1lb 6¾oz 651g  

    Around the container is a beautifully engraved scene:

  • Rocky / pebbly base with some grass.
  • Trees and bushes, both coniferous and deciduous.
  • Magnificent 9 point red deer stag in full roar with shaggy mane and sides.   The angle between the brow tine and the main beam has been accurately engraved at over 90° — less than 90° is a distinguishing feature of the related sika deer, see here (http://www.bds.org.uk/red_deer.html).   The shaggy mane is a feature of the British / Norwegian race (same source).
  • Red deer hind.
  • Two spotty red deer calves, one in mid gambol.
  • Seven large birds soaring overhead of the raptor (eagle/buzzard) type.

    • The foot and cover have been engraved with a single stem on which are oak leaves with two acorns in between.   Oddly the acorns on the foot have little blips at their free ends, whereas those on the cover don't.

    The stems exhibit a total of 15 knops of varying types, including two examples of one formed from four rods with a twist.

    No pontil scar or mark.

    The metal is lightly seedy throughout.

    What is it?   Note that it's probably not a covered drinking vessel, as the thick rim is squared off and the drinker would have difficulty in not dribbling!   All thoughts welcome.

    Bernard C.  8)

    I'm working on better photographs.
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: Paul S. on March 07, 2012, 04:14:15 PM
    looked at quickly, my initial thought was some form of lace makers lamp  -  but probably with the enclosed top it wouldn't work - and the absence of any sort of pontil mark also probably rules it out.
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: flying free on March 07, 2012, 04:19:09 PM
    it reminds me of a Pokal
    nice one here also
    http://www.cmog.org/artwork/pokal-cover?sm_technique=polishing&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=bs_has_image%20desc%2Cscore%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=10
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: Bernard C on March 22, 2012, 08:28:14 AM
    Thanks for the suggestions so far, but I'm not keen.

    Further ideas.

    It can't be a trophy or souvenir as there's nowhere for the words to go.   Also it can't be drunk from as both rims are thick and squared off.   However, a neighbour suggested a first blood or blooding cup, the cup being used to collect the blood from the kill, some then being tipped into the inverted cover, from which the novice member would have the blood smeared on his or her forehead.

    Alternatively it could be a frigger, a non-functional piece used to demonstrate the glassmaker's or engraver's skill.

    Any thoughts?

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: Ivo on March 22, 2012, 09:04:06 AM
    For the reasons you state so eloquently, Bernard, the item is a Pokal.  Forget the Dan Brown meets National Treasure explanation - you would not want to drag it around on your hunting expedition.

    Items like these which so amply demonstrate glassmaking and decorating skill are usually master pieces. By the look of it this one is from Bohemia or Silesia. I'd like to think the time frame is the 1870s - give or take 40 years....
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: wolkenreb on March 22, 2012, 05:19:15 PM
    Am I the only one having trouble viewing the picture?  It takes ages trying to load and then times out.
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: Lustrousstone on March 22, 2012, 06:53:49 PM
    Takes seconds here to load
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: wolkenreb on March 22, 2012, 06:57:09 PM
    OK - must be at my end.  Thanks.
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: flying free on March 22, 2012, 07:23:11 PM
    no I am as well now.
    m
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: Bernard C on March 24, 2012, 08:40:28 AM
    Ivo — Thanks for the information.   I had already looked up flying free's suggestion of a Pokal in a handy little reference I keep with me, and it said "German term for a stemmed goblet with a cover".   As a goblet is a large drinking cup for wine or ale, a Pokal had to be a drinking vessel, which my object isn't.   My logic was impeccable, but my conclusion turns out to have been wrong.    ;D

    As I bought it in the UK, I imagine that it was an exhibition or showroom piece made for the British market.   The more I look at the stag, the more impressive is the accurate depiction of the mane.   The engraver has resisted the temptation to tidy it up or otherwise enhance it.

    Might it be a Rowland Ward piece?

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: flying free on March 24, 2012, 09:19:12 AM
    You're welcome Bernard  :)
    do you have any close up photographs of the engraving at all?

    There is an engraved pokal on this link  ( the engraving looks different to yours) http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1409536
    But  there is discussion about a Moser book 1857-1997 (I've not got the book), and the blurb comments that some of the items in the book are attributed to J.F.Hoffman of Karlovy Vary. I think this is Johann F. Hoffman - it  might be an avenue to explore maybe, although I have no idea whether Moser (from 1893) would have made a pokal like yours.  Prior to this according to Truitts 1880-1940 Bohemian Glass, they bought blanks from companies such as  Meyr's and Harrach.  Just a thought though:)
    m
    Title: Re: Beautifully made and engraved big and heavy mystery object
    Post by: Bernard C on March 24, 2012, 08:20:38 PM
    Quote from: flying free on March 24, 2012, 09:19:12 AM
    ...   do you have any close up photographs of the engraving at all?   ...

    No, not yet.   I had a go last week, but it didn't work.   I hope to have another go at photographs on Monday or Tuesday after my Harpendon fair tomorrow.

    Quote from: flying free on March 24, 2012, 09:19:12 AM
    ...   There is an engraved pokal on this link  ( the engraving looks different to yours) http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1409536   ...

    Yes, it's different.   The stag is tidier than mine and the tree to the left is quite impressionist in a sort of artistic Japanese way.   My foliage is much more realistic.

    Thanks for your interest,

    Bernard C.  8)