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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bfg on March 20, 2012, 07:07:06 PM

Title: ID request for pink jug please
Post by: bfg on March 20, 2012, 07:07:06 PM
...and this is the pink jug for ID , with hand painted floral decoration, white alabaster type handle and has a wide flat polished pontil

stands 3 inches high to the handle, again opaque pink glass but in this artificial light it makes the vase in my other posting look redder, if you know what I mean

many thanks, Mel
Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
Post by: flying free on March 20, 2012, 07:32:51 PM
also opaline and absolutely gorgeous  :)  I don't know who made it though, sorry.  Although it's very interesting with the white opaline handle, a great contrast.  I'm sure someone will be able to help more.  Can you get a closer pic of the enamelling on it as well please?  I'd love to see that in more detail.  And a top view of the jug to see how the spout and rim are curved?
Thanks  :)
m
Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
Post by: keith on March 20, 2012, 08:35:01 PM
Did Stevens and Williams ever decorate their opaline glass?
Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
Post by: bfg on March 26, 2012, 04:37:54 PM
sorry for the tardy reply, life has a habit of interfering with my glass obsession  :-\

m, I've attached some more photos - just quick snaps but should show you what you are looking for and Keith, I have found very little on S&W opaline but I'm still looking

thanks for the replies so far   :)
Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
Post by: flying free on March 26, 2012, 05:24:40 PM
Stevens and Williams alabaster is referred to as Alabaster I think usually(may or may not be right but when you google that seems to be a key word)...but there is precious little information on it.  If you google Stevens and Williams Rose du Barry which is what their pink was called, you may get some hits, mostly of lidded pots and wine/cordial glasses.  The pink of your jug doesn't look quite as rose pink as S & W to me but I couldn't say definitely not.

I wanted a pic from the top to see whether it had been 'pinched' at the top sides to form the spout which makes a kind of trefoil shape from the top.  The handle has been applied from the top down I think?  does that make it an older piece?
I haven't found any decorated S &W alabaster but who knows - it doesn't seem to be well documented at all to be honest.   The Steuben site has better documentation than anything I could find. 
Could it be French? What is that decoration?  Is it vine leaves and grapes (or hops? hides behind sofa before someone tells me that is not what hops look like  ;D ) edited to add, forget the hops - I've just realised that what I am seeing as brown enamel on my screen is in fact gold  :-[
Just more questions from re reading my post  ;D sorry.
m
Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 26, 2012, 05:45:42 PM
M's brown/gold issue made me look closer. The gold is over yellow, which is typically Bohemian, though I don't know that it's solely Bohemian. I'm inclined to think the shape is a little crude for Stevens and Williams too.
Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
Post by: Bernard C on March 26, 2012, 07:19:23 PM
Mel — Both Janet and I had a close look and discussed it over dinner.   While we are fairly certain that it's S&W/RB or Empoli, we're not at all sure which.

Ignoring the decoration, which could be by anyone, we concluded:

  • Pontil finish more S&W/RB,
  • Handle more Empoli,
  • Pink OK with me for either — Janet doesn't like it for S&W/RB Alabaster,
  • Shape OK with me for either — Janet thinks it's more Italian.
    • Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on March 26, 2012, 08:07:15 PM
    According to 'The Crystal Years'.........the S. & W. use of the name 'Rose du Barry' has nothing to do with 'Alabaster.    It was in fact this factory's trade name for their variation of Burmese - which was a name they couldn't use for obvious reasons.       S. & W.'s Rose du Barry looks just like much of the regular Burmese even down to the gilding - although whether it 'glows' I don't know (I need a piece ;))
    I'm sure we've been through much of this argument in recent times when I posted a blue piece, which Nigel attributed definitely to S.& W., and that piece has a concave ground/polished pontil mark, and doubtless that is somewhere on the Board's Search facility - it wasn't more than 5 - 7 months back, I'm sure.        Looking at the illustration in the book of the S.& W. 'rose' alabaster - it really does look a delicate shade of rose  -and not pink like this piece.
    As regards enamelled decoration, the book says..............."The output was undecorated except with enamels, and was sold as plain coloured to the Birmingham silversmiths for insets and as vases for flower stands".       
    Steuben and Richardsons also produced alabaster  -  Richardsons apparently looking virtually identical to S.&W. (but I don't know if they offered a 'rose').         Carder produced something similar to rose, and called it 'Rosaline', but he seems not to achieved quite S.&W.'s delicate shade of 'rose'.
    I'm quoting the above in relation to S.&W.  -  I have zero knowledge of other Continental offerings, or of the Steuben material - and apologies if it seems like cheating - just quoting from a book.

    P.S.    Anyway, now we know where Alum Bay got their design idea from for their little milk jug you see quite often ;)
    P.P.S   -  do have a look through the search for the previous discussion - it may offer some more useful information. 
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 26, 2012, 08:34:26 PM
    I was referencing from page 108 Charles Hajdamach's 20th century British Glass.  Presumably he is incorrect in his description of the opaline covered pieces in plate 213 then?
    The plate shows 3 opaline covered lidded pieces the two taller of which he refers to as vases.
    He says
    'Alabaster bowl and vases by Stevens and Williams, 1920s.  The pink vase  is the firm's 'rose-du-barry' while the white vase is their 'eau-de-nil'. '
    I'd be interested to know which is correct to describe Stevens and Williams opaline pieces in this range then.
    It's difficult to tell colours from a screen but I would say that is not Stevens and Williams pink in their alabaster range as it is not an intense enough rose pink colour, but I could be wrong  :) The two things that do look like S&W to me are the large pontil mark (one of the pieces I had until recently had a very large pontil mark like that) and the flat top on the top of the handle which reminds me of the flat tops they put on their knops on their lidded bathroom bowls and covered vases.
    Paul could you please link your id from Nigel thread as I have done a number of searches on Stevens and Williams alabaster and that has not come up.  Thanks :)
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on March 26, 2012, 09:11:11 PM
    omg at this time of night you make such a request already ;) ;)          oh well, here goes another late night then.
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 26, 2012, 10:12:46 PM
    This is the link to your blue Alabaster Stevens and Williams bowl base, but I can't see any reference to the pink colour discussion  ???
    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,42333.msg235185.html#msg235185
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on March 26, 2012, 10:29:07 PM
    Dear Sue  -  thank you for assisting with my link.             I had in fact typed the following - hit a wrong key and lost the lot, and have had to re-type the entire post  -  the air here is very blue indeed.

    The first link below is for my blue bowl that Nigel confirmed as S.&W. alabaster  -  the other is for a similar material that I believe was attributed to Stueben.      There is another post, subsequent to mine, that was also helpful, but which I now can't find.
    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,42333.msg235185.html#msg235185
    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37292.msg204024.html#msg204024

    My comments about Rose du Barry were taken from..........'The Crystal Years  -  A Tribute to the Skills and Artistry of STEVENS & WILLIAMS/ROYAL BRIERLEY CRYSTAL' by R. S. Williams-Thomas.    The author being an S.&W. family member who was involved substantially for over 30 with the company.       Page 18 in the book describes the decorative features of R du B..........."an opaque or ivory glass, shading from a pale primrose yellow at the base up to very pale rose and to a deeper rose on the top rim.      The surface was usually acid satined be was sometimes left in its bright polished state c 1888.         In the book plate XXXIII shows an example of R du B, from which you can see the similarity with Burmese type wares.

    I can see the reference on page 108 in '20th Century British Glass', but unable to offer any explanation as to this apparent anomaly of the use of the name R du B. by both Williams-Thomas and Hajdamach. :-\

    signed  'perplexed of Surrey' ;)

    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 26, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
    http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/stevens-williams-rosaline-and-alabaster-covered
    this looks very pale compared to what I thought was their pink, so maybe that does tie the colour as well  :-\ although it could just be the photograph.
    Here is a pic on Wayne's site that I thought was more the colour.
    http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=73_251&products_id=4018

    I am very confused by the Rose du Barry issue on description of the pink colour regarding the the alabaster range.  The Dudley Museums site has a piece (no picture) listed as a condiment pot but the description is of an Alabaster range piece and there is no mention of burmese at all. 
    http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH720/
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: bfg on March 27, 2012, 07:54:07 AM
    thank you all so much for your replies, such a lot to follow up on, I will do so tonight. Just regretting passing on my 'crystal years' book last year - typical!

    Mel
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 27, 2012, 08:16:54 AM
    I'm hoping to go up to Broadfield House tomorrow, providing no emergencies stop us - if so and if I see anyone to ask, I will ask the question about what Stevens and Williams pink was called in the Alabaster range.
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on March 27, 2012, 08:27:40 AM
    French mistresses have a lot to answer for, it seems ;).       Appears to have been used originally on C18 Sevres procelain - and possibly like many descriptions has been used because of its sense of romantic appeal etc.  -  sells well also.
    quote.................."I will ask the question about what Stevens and Williams pink was called in the Alabaster range"...............they'll probably reach for Hajdamach ;D
    Have a good day.
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 27, 2012, 08:35:50 AM
    I am sooo looking forward to it...I have been desperate to get there and to the V&A for years.  I'm taking a couple of pieces with me and hoping for answers although not expecting just in case there is no one available to show.  I can't wait to see the glass.
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Lustrousstone on March 27, 2012, 09:14:21 AM
    You'll enjoy it. I want to go again.
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: keith on March 27, 2012, 06:11:49 PM
    You'll also like all the books,take plenty of money,the Ruskin Centre is worth a visit along with the Red House Cone both just down the road ;D ;D
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 27, 2012, 06:22:22 PM
    I've got precisely 2 1/2 hours there before we have to turn round and come back to pick up kids.  I want to see the collection as a priority - what else should I see?
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: keith on March 27, 2012, 11:30:51 PM
    Last time I was there I spent half an hour just drooling over the books,the museum is not that big it depends on if there is anything particular you want to see,you might get 10 min's at The Red House Cone after but you need longer I think.You could always come back for the glass festival later in the year to see the rest ;D ;D
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 30, 2012, 07:25:37 AM
    I don't have an answer to the Rose du Barry  question yet. I hope to do so, but for now I am going with the description Charles Hajdamach gave in his book  :)
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on March 30, 2012, 09:32:49 AM
    huh - you can go off people you know ;) ;D
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 30, 2012, 11:45:42 AM
     ;D
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 31, 2012, 02:58:53 PM
    It appears to me,from further reading, that Rose du Barry was a name for one of the colours produced by Stevens and Williams
    My reference being: Charles Hajdamach British Glass 1800-1914 page 216 where under the Chapter on Cameo Glass, it is stated
    with reference Stevens and Williams Cameo glass -
    '...By the early 1880's the pattern books are crammed with cameo designs.....  The range of objects consisted of vases, claret jugs....  The number of colours was no less varied and included claret, orange, nut brown, cinnamon, gorse yellow,.......rose du barry, turquoise, amber,....'

    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on March 31, 2012, 04:25:13 PM
    I suspect the second half of the C19 was awash with OTT forid (no pun intended) descriptions of colours - Royal Worcester's 'Blush Ivory always comes to mind - try googling the R. du B. and you'd be amazed as to how many different uses the name has been put.
    None of which really solves the question of whether Mr. Williams-Thomas did or didn't use the word correctly for his own company's wares.
    The name has probably been mis-used ever since its inception, and quite likely should really be used for only those opaque muted shadings like Burmese, since it was from ceramics that it came originally, not glass.           Presumably Mr. Hajdamach is quoting from factory records somewhere along the line.       Wouldn't be surprised if other C19 glass producers hadn't also used the description.
    P.S.   I've forgotten now what started all this talk of colours ;)
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 31, 2012, 04:51:30 PM
    Paul, I can't accept that the colour name has just been 'misused'. 
    Charles Hajdamach very clearly states the colour used for the Alabaster was 'their Rose du Barry' in his most recent book.  He also states clearly under Cameo glass in a book produced many years earlier, that it was one of the range of colours used for the Cameo range.  Presumably this is because Stevens and Williams had a pink glass that they called Rose du barry as well as their other pink glass which was called Rose.   Why repeat an error many years later for a different range?

    According to a definition I found 'Rose du barry' is 'an opaque pink ceramic overglaze developed in France during the 18th century'.  Which would tie in with it being used as one of their 'pink names' for Alabaster and Cameo I suppose if both are opaque pink glass.

    I wonder how their range 'Rose du Barry' similar to Burmese ware was made?  I'm off to look that up ;)
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Lustrousstone on March 31, 2012, 05:36:08 PM
    There are actually Stevens and Williams pattern books surviving that give colour info. The Crystal Years gives a "record" of colours on p72. Under Opals is Rose Alabaster; under Reds and Pinks is Rosaline. The only other "pink" is Violet, which is described as pale mauve pink. Rose du Barry is described on p18 as "opaque or ivory glass, shading from pale primrose yellow at the base up to a very pale rose and to a deeper rose on the top rim." In other words a "burmese".

    The late 19th C S&W bulb vases, as seen in the catalogues, include pink and pink opalescent.

    I'd be more inclined to go with this than CH. His books are not error free
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 31, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
    ah, your post and my modification to my post above where I added a definition of Rose du barry have crossed.  Well if the colour list survives then I will bow out gracefully  -  Paul, you were right  ;D  I am surprised at Rosaline, isn't that a colour name given to a Steuben pink as well?

    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Lustrousstone on March 31, 2012, 05:46:45 PM
    It probably wasn't trademarked, Rosalin is another name used for pink by quite a few companies
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on March 31, 2012, 06:46:15 PM
    'Rosaline' was indeed a name used by Steuben - Newman say of this.............."a type of jade glass that is rose coloured.    It was made by Steuben Glass Works".         
    The Grover's discuss this 'jade aspect of the Steuben production - Rosaline in particular - and they draw attention to the similarity with S.& W. material and that of Steuben - commenting that unless pieces are marked then it is quite easy to confuse the two.
    And the reason for this similarity of the 'pink' glass from the two factories, is that Carder was the art director of S. & W.  -  and then presumably some time in the first decade of the C20 went to Steuben where he remained as art director until the mid 1930's  ish, I think.
    The Grovers show examples of Steuben 'Rosaline', although I don't think the colour of the pix is particularly good, and could be misleading.   The book was produced in Japan back in 1967, when colour reproduction may not have been that faithful to the real thing.
    Actually, I thought it was a girl's name. ;)

    P.S.  obviously I can't spell 'florid' :-[

     
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on March 31, 2012, 07:09:44 PM
    I should have added I was surprised given the connection of Carder between the two, but something else has bothered me that I need to investigate about the S&W Alabaster and Steuben's - I've always thought there was a Carder link between the two, but having looked at timings, he left years before the S&W Alabaster range was brought out I think.  I had intended reading up about that and trying to sort the chronology in my head, but became distracted by colour names  ;D
    And I'm terribly sorry but this thread appears to have been hijacked with other issues although vaguely related  :-[
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: bfg on April 02, 2012, 07:41:08 AM
    Hi m, no need to apologise re hijacking - I have been folllowing with great interest :-D

    ............still kicking myself over the crystal years giveaway last year

    Mel
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on April 02, 2012, 08:02:59 AM
    as of this morning, I see there are plenty for sale on Abe Books  -  starting at a tenner (plus postage) - which seems good value for money.

    quote from m...................."I should have added I was surprised given the connection of Carder between the two................"
    sorry m, am I being thick as usual............did you mean to say  -  "............I wasn't surprised......."

    I think we should stop this one now, we seem to have got into a muddle with all these different references :)
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on April 02, 2012, 08:57:27 AM
    No, I was surprised....I would have thought they would have kept any colour ranges and names very distinct from each other in order to 'mark' their brands and keep them top of mind. 
    But on the other hand 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' I suppose and for all these factories, using the same or similar names for their products probably helped cause confusion amongst retail buyers and the public alike, which will have also helped sales.
    m
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: Paul S. on April 02, 2012, 01:58:53 PM
    o.k. - I'll go back to sleep.
    Title: Re: ID request for pink jug please
    Post by: flying free on October 27, 2021, 09:33:13 PM
    https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46591.msg262568.html#msg262568
    Referring to Christine's post in this thread:
    'M's brown/gold issue made me look closer. The gold is over yellow, which is typically Bohemian, though I don't know that it's solely Bohemian. I'm inclined to think the shape is a little crude for Stevens and Williams too.'

    I've got a funny feeling this little jug might turn out to be by Annathal bei Schuttenhofen (Loetz).  I've seen similar enamelling from them on the early Loetz Victorian pieces and the pink and white alabaster and the shape would fit with their production I think c. mid 1800s.

    m