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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: vetraio50 on April 09, 2012, 03:55:19 AM

Title: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
Post by: vetraio50 on April 09, 2012, 03:55:19 AM
Have been wondering about this bowl.
It is marked with the etched John Walsh Walsh mark.
Can anyone fill in some more details?

Date? 1905, 1910, 1920 .....?

Pattern numbers, colour name etc ....

I bought it here in Sydney Australia 18 months ago at a Collector's Fair.

Many thanks!

Kevin G
Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
Post by: Bernard C on April 09, 2012, 07:21:59 AM
Kevin — It's not Vesta Venetian.   You are making it quite tough for anyone kind enough to look it up for you.   Please include:

  • Whether it is lightly vertically ribbed, and if so how many ribs (18, perhaps?),
  • Whether it is iridised (like Okra and Loetz) or not, and some indication of the strength of the iridescence,
  • Rim diameter, overall diameter, foot diameter, height,
  • Weight (can sometimes be useful but not essential),
  • An exact transcription of the mark.
    • As all measurements in original Walsh source material are imperial (they closed in 1951), inch measurements are preferable, but metric measurements are acceptable.   Walsh rarely used eighth of an inch sizes. so keep to the nearest quarter of an inch, noting any exact measurements.   If you aren't happy with fractions give us metric to the nearest millimetre.   If you aren't happy with measuring, get someone else to check your figures.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: vetraio50 on April 09, 2012, 09:55:22 AM
    Thanks for your reply, Bernard.

    My apologies for the lack of detail:
    I have counted 16 vertical ribs.
    The ribbing is definitely light and hard to count.
    The diameter is 8.25 inches (21.5 cm)
    The height is  3.95 inches (10 cm)
    The glass is 0.075 inches (0.2 cm) at the rim
    The foot is 3.95 inches (10 cm) across.
    The pontil is 1.95 inches (5 cm) across.
    The mark reads “Walsh / England”
    The W is constructed of two overlapping “V’s”.
    The weight is 2.09 lbs (950 gr.)

    Thanks again for your input.
     regards Kev G
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: Bernard C on April 09, 2012, 11:18:34 AM
    Quote from: vetraio50 on April 09, 2012, 09:55:22 AM
    ...   
    The mark reads "Walsh / England"
       ...

    Bet it doesn't, but reads "WALSH / ENGLAND".    ;D

    Kevin — Thanks for the detail.   I was unsure which of two patterns it was, but your measurements enabled me to choose correctly.

    Sourcing from the factory pattern books reproduced in Reynolds, we get:

    Range name:  Iridescent
    Pattern number:  A4614 A4514   (Bernard C's transcription error corrected at his request - Mod.)
    Date:  circa 1930
    Other details:  noted in three sizes, 8¼ (8.25) is the middle one, "SELLS" 4/6, i.e. the factory gate selling price.   Out of the retail price, probably approaching twice this, had to come the wholesaler's delivery costs and margin, retailer's delivery costs and margin, and an allowance for breakages and other shrinkage.   I've ignored any tax consideration.   The National Archives currency converter relates 4/6 in 1930 to the same spending power as £7.52 in 2005.

    As you can see, Walsh glass was not cheap.

    Note that some items, such as wine flutes, in the Walsh Iridescent range were not iridised.    Also that some patterns in the contemporary range Pompeian were also made in Iridescent, and vice versa.

    I can't think of anything else that's relevant.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: vetraio50 on April 09, 2012, 12:45:38 PM
    Many thanks Bernard. I'll be careful with capitals from now on. I'm so happy to finally find out the correct Pattern N and Range Name. I suppose the cost in Australia would have been considerably higher too. Thank you again for your troubles! regards Kevin G.
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: Bernard C on April 09, 2012, 08:26:18 PM
    Kevin — Walsh Iridescent was made in just the two colours, your butterfly blue, and uranium yellow.

    I would be most grateful for an accurate rib count as I'm collecting such counts.   The mathematics of good glass design is really quite interesting.   Try using a small piece of Blu-Tack or dough to mark your starting point — it makes counting much easier.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: vetraio50 on April 09, 2012, 11:29:24 PM
    Hi Bernard. I agree with the notion of number theory. I am a great admirer of Dutch glass. The theosophists at Leerdam were planting numbers within their pieces: Copier, Cochius and de Bazel were all Free Masons involved in a search for underlying mathematical priciples and systems based design. The 'golden section' - 'de gulden snede' became a principle used to create designs ..... especially useful when it comes to the form of pressed glass design.
    I did count the ribs fairly carefully. I did count sixteen and not eighteen. But I will gladly revisit the count yet again later today.
    Do you know who was responsible for the design of these pieces at JWW?
    Another question: are there any images on the net of "Vesta Venetian"?
    I was probably led astray by some misattributions.

    regards

    Kev G
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: Bernard C on April 10, 2012, 02:54:10 AM
    Kevin — Here's a classic example of Walsh mother of pearl Vesta Venetian (http://www.fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/resultsLotDetails.asp?lotsID=75189&menuItemOn=2&salesID=110&hasImage=1) at Fieldings, the Stourbridge auctioneers.   Their description is slightly misleading as it is obvious they hadn't worked out how it was made.   Most examples claiming to be Vesta Venetian on the net are not Vesta Venetian, including at least one museum example.   Many of these misattributions are down to me, as I accepted without question Reynolds' attribution of the lidded jar at Plate 15 (ii), which turned out to be postwar Empoli after labelled examples emerged.   All the Vesta Venetian examples in Gulliver are OK, as are all the other examples in Reynolds, but again their descriptions show that they hadn't worked out how it was made.

    I'm only interested in an accurate rib count.   It could be 14, 15, 16 or 18.   I'm fairly certain Walsh never used a 17-rib dip mould, but anything is possible.

    While browsing around the net I noticed my words quoted extensively on the Australian Collectors Weekly forum here (http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/51843-john-walsh-walsh-iridescent-bowl-a4614?in=1268), without permission and without my copyright notice.   You started off well, with a few words of summary and a link, but that's as far as you can go without committing copyright theft.   You can include as many links as you wish, to individual posts if you think it appropriate.   Please will you delete my words and change them to links (or, if necessary, get a Collectors Weekly forum moderator to do it for you).   Here's the main link you need:

  • http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46968.msg264179.html#msg264179
    • See topic ADMIN: Using Copyright Material (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,24434.0.html).

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: vetraio50 on April 10, 2012, 03:02:14 AM
    Sure Bernard I'll fix that up now. My apologies! I meant no offence.
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: vetraio50 on April 10, 2012, 03:30:18 AM
    Hi Bernard!
    I have done a recount and I can verify that indeed the count on this bowl is 16.
    I have read the topic ADMIN: Using Copyright Material. Thank you again and my sincere apologies.
    regards
    kevin G
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: Bernard C on April 10, 2012, 04:13:00 AM
    Kevin — grateful thanks, for both the rib count and deleting the material on the Collectors Weekly forum.   All along I had no doubt that it was your enthusiasm that got the better of you.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: Lustrousstone on April 10, 2012, 06:51:41 AM
    And here's the iridescent in Sunbeam http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1131
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: vetraio50 on April 10, 2012, 12:16:16 PM
    Many thanks Lustrousstone!
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: Bernard C on April 11, 2012, 06:19:16 PM
    Kevin — you speculated "I suppose the cost in Australia would have been considerably higher too."   Not compared with the cost in Britain.   Shipping by ocean freighter in 1930 was cheap, as the two main costs involved, labour and fuel, were both considerably lower proportionately than today.

    Christine — Thanks for prompting my memory.   I knew I had seen Sunbeam, the colour of the uranium yellow version of Iridescent somewhere, and found it in Hajdamach II, p.125.   Walsh named both colours in a 1929 promotional brochure Colour in Glass.   Your butterfly blue, Kevin, was called Moonbeam.

    This also helps with the dating of your A4514 bowl, Kevin, as the illustrations in Colour in Glass are of Iridescent launch patterns, most of which slightly later in the "A" factory pattern book.   So your bowl was launched in 1929.   Note my correction to the pattern number.

    You also asked about a designer.   The simple answer is that we don't know.   William G. Riley, the new MD appointed in 1927, provided the inspiration and motivation to dramatically improve the Walsh product range, and so must have been involved, as, almost certainly, was their new designer, Clyne Farquharson.   However I'm confident that others, such as their shop floor glassmakers, would have been involved as well.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: John WALSH Walsh Vesta Venetian?
    Post by: vetraio50 on April 11, 2012, 11:15:04 PM
    Many thanks Bernard!