Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on April 11, 2012, 02:52:32 PM
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I love this vase but have been able to get precisely nowhere on id'ing it (probably because I've been blinkered in my approach) so any ideas very welcome.
The body of the vase is a very pale dirty pink or pale brown colour transparent glass, not clear as it might appear . It has internal 'paint' swooshes of black (any other colours showing are reflections) and gorgeous frothy bubbles in patches rather than all over.
There are four sort of 'pinched' trails attached to it that aren't applied but are pinched from the body of the vase I think although on the inside it is smooth. The base curves gently inwards in donut style but quite deeply, so the pontil mark wouldn't be touching the shelf it stands on, if you see what I mean? it has a snapped off perfect ring shape as the pontil mark (will have to do pic later) and there is wear to the base. The pontil mark is what is throwing me. It doesn't match any of the people I've thought of.
It measures about 7" tall and 3.5" at the base. Weighs 700gms and is quite thick glass.
Any thoughts and all thoughts welcome :)
m
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But for the pink it looks like a Whitefriars nobbly thats gone very wrong . Maybe the guy cut his hand on the sharp bits so you got glass mixed with blood . sorry yuk . ;D ;) ::)
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It's definitely not Whitefriars, it definitely isn't knobbly and it hasn't gone very wrong :'( it may be the photos as it is difficult to photograph with the 4 trails on it.
Well I suppose I did ask for any thoughts :)
m
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Sorry m didnt want to rock your boat , just teasing .xxx :'( :-X
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:) no worries JP.
better pics of the base and trails
The only other vase I have that has a similar pontil mark is my ribbed dotted decanter. I can think of quite a few people this could be by (or at least were worth researching for similarities) but none seem to fit with this pontil mark and some don't fit other things about the vase. The base is indented quite significantly as can be seen from the photo. I don't think this is a new piece.
Any ideas for me to search for welcome :)
m
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Fascinating piece, m!
I'm thinking a definite Scandi direction - (but I bet you were thinking; "Hmmm... Benny-ish.." too when you saw it!)
I also thought Bo Borgstrom-y - although the colours and bubbles aren't sort of tied up in each other as inclusions in his "usual" stuff.
Too "organic" for Peill & Putzler, I think, and again, not quite the right sort of mix of colour with bubble inclusions.
I doubt anybody would mistake it for wfs. It doesn't have the correct round polished pontil mark that indicates wfs. ;D
But Benny does leave this sort of neat small round heat-finished mark on the base. 8)
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Sue, thanks :) I wasn't thinking Benny at all bizarrely but I was thinking maybe French Rousseau/Leveille/Thuret when I bought it. I did think the pontil mark wasn't right for any of those and some I think are always marked anyway from what I can see, but I still went ahead lol. I also checked out Ivo's P&P collection and others just in case.
I think I've exhausted the 'worth looking at for similarities' possibles though -
Eugene Rousseau
Leveille
Andre Thuret
Jean Sala
Henri Navarre
Maurice Marinot
Benny Motzfeldt
Bjorn Weckstrom
That's not to say it definitely isn't any of them, but I haven't found a match and the pontil mark puts me off all but Benny Motzfeldt - Now you've made me look again I do have one BM with a vaguely similar pontil mark, but the design with the trails isn't something I associate with her.
I hadn't thought Bjorn Borgstrom though but will now search him and some more Scandinavian makers :)
thanks again
m
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I would be very interested to hear Robbo's or Pinkspoon's thoughts on this piece. ;)
I agree, I'm not overly keen to associate these sorts of trails with Benny.
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http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bZsuJ90UAtIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=art+nouveau+to+art+deco+arwas&hl=en&sa=X&ei=33x_T_epK8TI0QW54PmBBw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=art%20nouveau%20to%20art%20deco%20arwas&f=false
sorry about the long link but if you scroll down to page 13 the vase on the right is the closest I have found in terms of shape, trails and general spirit (obviously mine has no crackle and I'm assuming the linked one has no bubbles as I can't see any).
I'm going to either end up being totally wrong on this one, or never finding out who did it ;D
Trying to describe the colour better I would say it is more a dirty lilac/pale cinammon than pink btw JP :) so no cuts made in the making of this one ;D
m
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There is something similar about it.... but I can't make out the colours or how they're applied, and in your piece, the colour is quite deliberately placed how it is, it makes a statement within the abstraction.
(I got rather distracted by the second piece in the link
- who is it?
- what is it?
I need it....... Is it Karl Wiedmann?)
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Ernest Baptiste Leveille as far as I know or possibly Eugene Rousseau difficult to tell without the caption.
And yes, they are my holy grail ;D
I did also check out Karl Wiedmann btw, but again I couldn't find anything similar.
m
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;D
You have such good taste. 8)
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champagne taste, tap water budget ::) still, I like a challenge ;D
One day I shall make a list of my top five, sell all my collection then invest the funds in one or two of those and some good lighting and be happy.
m
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Champagne's nasty stuff. :P
You can't drink it, it's all froth.
It fills you up with gas and it gives you foul breath.
It's bad wine, made sort of palatable by the novelty of being all froth.
Some folk will fall for any gimmick. 8)
;D I got home after a few days away last night.... I had managed to forget how utterly and totally stunning and glorious and breathtaking my "new" '67 Sam Herman was!
I picked it up carefully (it was 2am, after 12 hours travelling) and took it to under the cooker hood (great lighting).....
and I was as blown away with it as I was when I first laid eyes on it...... I'm in love, I'm in love, I'm in love! And I can cuddle it!
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;D It's my fave...
m
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Dont forget M i only have black and white cant afford colour and talking of pontils you should have seen some of them after down the pub for lunch , they aint changed much i drink with them on Sunday they struggle to hold a pint glass steady and dribble a lot . well it is a Memorial club dedicated to World War 1 . some of us were there . ???
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You could afford considerably more than B&W if you didn't spend so much in the pub - I found out just at the weekend, a single pint costs about £6!!!!
Do carry on though - the government needs as much idiot tax as it can get.
I do my bit with tobacco.
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Hi Sue thanks for your kind reply , i dont drink pints and what i do drink in my club is subsidised by idiots .
When you come down this way i will show you my Sam j Herman pieces and the pictures of my day at Sams PAD
picked up and dropped off at the station by Sam the Man in his old jalopy , one of the best days in my life , like spending a day with Ernest Hemmingway and Maurice Marinot , Sam is one of the best story tellers one could ever meet , his coffee and sarnies are good as well . Not to mention his paintings . 8)
PS I dont go to Pubs they are too common . ;D
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m, I think it's a great item. It reminds me of some 60s Polish designs.
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Anik thanks :) have you any names in particular? I found one Karl Wiedmann vase btw that bears some similarities - a 1930's piece, but not enough similarities to convince me.
However I do feel it is probably 30's or earlier.....as I said though, quite possibly will turn out to be wrong ;D
m
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JP, do you really think there is any possibility this could be a one off Whitefriars piece? I thought I'd better clarify as I wasn't sure I'd followed your last post.
The way it is constructed as far as I can see is that the interior layer is plain, the bubbles and the black splash and spots are then in the middle layer, then it has a further plain layer over the top - at the neck you can just feel the patch of bubbles on the outside where the external cased layer has been pulled thin and is less thick than the body of the vase. The neck is drawn up and is thinner than the body of the vase but then has been folded at the rim inside to create a thicker rim. The trails seem to have been pinched out of the body rather than stuck on if that makes sense.
Sue, I've been trying to take photos of my crackle vase to show how that has been made, in answer to your question about how the one I linked to has been made. I think, if mine is the same, it is crackled on the inside layer, then the middle layer has the 'painted splashes' applied to it, then the whole is cased in a thick layer of glass. I've attached a couple of photos of my blue crackle with paint effects, to show this effect ( I hope - although photographing it was a nightmare). You can feel the crackle on the inside of my blue vase.
m
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Well M over the years i have seen some really weird nobblys that have gone very wrong and quite often i have seen a piece of Whitefriars where a piece of stray colour has got into the mix or on the iron especially after a liquid lunch , remember those guys were working in tremendous heat , its worth asking Emmi she is very familiar with nobblys so i hear . Also i believe some strange ones were made at Adam Aas studio .... i didnt get to go to that .
I also seem to remember seeing one or two with cracked off unpolished pontils and a slightly pushed in base , if someone wanted to take a dodgy one out of the back door it would miss the pontil polishing stage . i know that for a fact . ;)
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ok JP thank you. I'm with you and I could go along with that, but for the bubbles. They are deliberate and have been deliberately formed to appear in patches I think...I honestly don't think they are accidental. Also the pushed up base is quite deeply pushed up not slightly indented. However.. that said, I'm keeping an open mind ;D and putting Whitefriars on my list of possibles.
Thanks again
m
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Well the bubbles do sound a bit confusing if they are delberate but you do see a few unexpected bubbles in some W/Fs items , i would also like to see if Adam Aaronsen can add anything at all . jp
Why not stick a couple of pictures on whitefriars.com isit section because several members went to the demo on nobblys at Adams and some specialise in the range . It may even be a trial piece or Kingsware .
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I'm not sure how to do that but I will try :) thank you again. I've attached a picture which is the best I can do to show how the bubbles are in definite patches and only in certain parts of the vase. They aren't at all like the odd stray bubble if you know what I mean.
Sue, actually the vase that you asked about is in the V&A collection and they describe it as being made in two layers
see here
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1666/vase/
I've found a gap in the decor of my blue crackle where I can show better how the crackle and colour layers work (see 3rd pic below). I think mine is done in the same way as the one in the V&A, but it has a very thick casing of glass on the base. But you can also see how thick the layers are with the 'painted' layer being completely separate.
m
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Hi M having seen the clearer pictures i am drifting away from WFs but i have heard the kingsware glass was of poorer quality often with bubbles , one of the King brothers ( ex Whitefriars) works with Adam Aa .
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Hi M your first pictures wouldnt enlarge on my sceen but having seen and enlarged the later ones i would forget W/Fs i dont know a lot about Kingsware . I believe W/Fs.com may have their catalogue .
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JP thank you for looking and taking time to go through them again :) I've had a look at hundreds of W/F now so am with you on it not being W/F. I've checked Kingsware and I'm sure it isn't as well.
I'll keep searching.
m
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I was checking another piece of glass today and put the blacklight tube on this vase, it gives off an intense dirty dark yellow glow. I'm sure this isn't a recognised/infallible method of dating but much of my old glass has this colour glow, presumably due to manganese used as a decoloriser. None of my more 'modern' studio or other glass has this intensity or murkiness of yellow glow. I'm still thinking this is an older piece than the 60's/70's or more recent era of studio glass.
m
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Still going down the same path lol, rightly or wrongly, but I've been curious as to how the maker only ensured the bubbles were in patches rather than all over. I was reading my new book acquisition last night (The Art of French Glass - Janine Bloch-Dermant)
and came across two Galle pieces with this effect and an explanation (I'm not suggesting my vase is Galle BTW lol)
page 118 plate 185 'Air bubbles simulating drops of water result from the "projection of materials emitting vapours that, on contact with the crystal in the process of fusion, are able to form bubbles". '
m
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I came across this linked vase again in searching for something else. The more I see it the more I'm convinced my vase is old. I don't know how old but it has a dark yellow glow under blacklight and the similarity of design with the linked vase is definitely there.
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=bZsuJ90UAtIC&pg=PA14&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U2y15bwW7UkWHvFTbK0emMe5vMdtg&w=1280
I read on a paperweight auction that Appert Freres pieces fluoresced yellow. Appert Freres had links with Ernest Baptiste Leveille.
This vase in the V&A has bubbles:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1839/vase-appert-fr%C3%A8res/vase-appert-fr%C3%A8res/?carousel-image=2016JR2229
This one is listed as Eugene Rousseau and has enamels and bubbles:
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/eugene-rousseau-1827-1891-vase-ovoide-en-epais-ve-3-c-ff01a9df50
I can't imagine any of those makers leaving a pontil mark unpolished however the base of mine is significantly indented so there would be no reason to polish.
I am pretty sure mine is old - so possibly 'inspired' by perhaps? I don't think it's studio glass because of the yellow glow under blacklight and the curious tint to the clear glass. However the enamels are black as compared to these examples which I think are dark red etc but not really black?
I also found these two on Alamy:
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-fine-arts-rousseau-francois-eugene-1827-1891-vase-cut-glass-with-oxyden-16208011.html?imageid=69F2D772-FA48-489A-8CAB-15647084FD77&p=58866&pn=1&searchId=3c4971198c08843c787b3bbf56460961&searchtype=0
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aaarggh, too late to add
The final two, the one on the right it says is made of quartz. Perhaps they meant the one on the left? But possibly that is the inspiration for many of these style of glass vases.