Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: heartofsklo on April 19, 2012, 03:57:06 PM

Title: Green & clear epergne + tadpole style pattern / peacock eye trail style
Post by: heartofsklo on April 19, 2012, 03:57:06 PM
The glass runs from clear to green and has what looks like tadpole pattern in the glass. The epergne measures a total of 40cm tall.
The epergne base has "E.P.B.M." (electroplated Britannia metal) to the base and centre flute holder and was made by James Dixon & Sons Ltd, Sheffield.

Just need info regarding the glass maker if possible? It looks and feels good quality.
Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
Post by: Paul S. on April 19, 2012, 07:29:52 PM
an extremely common type of table decoration from the second half of the C19 and probably up to the 14 - 18 war............made by the world and his wife, so the chances of finding the maker are virtually nil, unfortunately. :)             Almost certainly, the glass would have had no connection with James Dixon.
Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
Post by: flying free on April 19, 2012, 07:49:22 PM
Well it may have been an extremely common design idea but imho there are not millions that have survived and yours is a little bit different to the ones I see mostly, i.e.3 small flutes and a central flute or mismatched flutes.  Those that have opalescent glass flutes in perfect condition are the ones that sell well, likewise those that are entirely of glass, stand included, for obvious reasons that they are rarer as they are more fragile.
However I do think yours is very pretty and the design reminds me a lot of the peacock eye type glass vases.  James Dixon was a very good name and therefore I wouldn't associate it (of course, I could be wrong) with mass produced 'millions' type of glass and so I wouldn't write this off as being a 'standard' piece.  In addition to which it does look as if your matching bowl and flute are original to the piece.  You may not find a maker but I think it is still a collectable piece in itself  :)
m
Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
Post by: Paul S. on April 19, 2012, 08:02:00 PM
so what are you saying m............are you suggesting that Dixon had a hand in making the glass???         What makes you think that?   I wasn't implying that they have survived in droves  -  obviously not -  but unless of especially individual design, then simply almost impossible to find the maker because they were made by so many factories and in vast quantities - the glass might even have come from outside the U.K.    Single flutes are often seen for sale, they are attractive, especially if of cranberry/pinks and/or opalescent/uranium, and I guess people collect just odd trumpets.
I would agree, it is attractive  -  you're just biased because of the peacock green colour ;)
Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
Post by: Paul S. on April 19, 2012, 08:10:32 PM
correction, I've re-read your comments m  -  don't belive you were suggesting that Dixon was connected with the glass, just that in your opinion you wouldn't necessarily associate them with mass produced glass.    You may be correct, although equally you could be wrong, but whichever way we look at it, very, very unlikely we're going to find a glass maker's name. :)
Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
Post by: flying free on April 19, 2012, 08:17:10 PM
 -  oh I'd just typed the below when you reposted so I'm going to post it anyway
 ;D
No, I'm not suggesting they had anything to do with the glass, and should have said 'James Dixon was a very good Silversmiths'. I am sure they were linked in someway with Christopher Dresser for example. They are  a good name and whilst I could be wrong (and very shortly I am sure to find out via another post on this thread that I am  ;D) I don't associate their wares with mass produced, squillions of items.  I think they will have sourced their glass from probably a fairly good maker.   All I am saying is  I think they produced good quality items.  I also think it looks as though the piece is original, as the bowl and the flute match and they seem to fit the metalware well. It isn't that difficult to fit 4 mismatching non original flutes into a stand that takes flutes only, but I think it would be harder to find a matching bowl and flute and make them fit a stand not made to hold them.
and yes, I admit I love this type of decor on glass :P - it appeals, and is fairly classy imho  ;D  We may not find a maker but having that decoration on the glass could lead to something...maybe.  Can we have a close up of the decoration and how it is applied please?
thanks
m
Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
Post by: heartofsklo on April 19, 2012, 10:20:56 PM
flying free - I agree, it is good quality, nor extremely common and do not think the world and his wife achieved such in their millions. That is a bit like saying "a vase is a vase is a vase". I will post another image tomorrow.

As we all know, the glass could have been made almost anywhere. Hopefully it will jar someones knowledge about such pieces and start to unravel a trail to an ID for it. I guess there are collectors and experts in all areas of glass manufacture and therefore remain hopeful that they stumble upon my piece here.
Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
Post by: Bernard C on April 20, 2012, 03:11:40 AM
I look at it this way.

The most difficult hand made fancy glass to attribute is a simple container.   Flutes, footed pieces, and stems all help make it easier.

Here (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-8614) is a 1939 advertisement for a classic epergne with a mirror plateau base by Haden, Mullett & Haden.   In the Fratelli Toso factory collection there are examples of classic epergnes which were still being made and supplied to the British antiques trade in the late '50s and possibly into the '60s.

I noted three features of the glass of this epergne which might help attribution:
  • Shaded colour was a premium option for a considerable time by S&W for many of their patterns.
  • Peacock Eye and dab trails were certainly made by Stuart and by Richardson.
  • The eclectic rim crimp is unusual and should be carefully checked for a match in reliable publications and websites.
    • Finally don't forget that Eric Reynolds discovered references to Walsh Sateen glass in a metalbasher's factory pattern book in the Sheffield archives.   They might be worth contacting.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: Bernard C on April 20, 2012, 08:27:14 AM
    ... continued

    See topic Queries on a Stevens & Williams 16" Shaded Green Trumpet Vase (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,43356.0.html) for comparison.

    When looking for similar rim crimps the shape of the object is immaterial.   Only yesterday I happened to have two pieces out at the same time and noticed for the first time identical rim crimps.   One is what the Americans term a rose bowl, the other a trumpet vase.   The first is rock solid Walsh.   The second was already Walsh by two factors, but now there's a third, very strong reinforcement for its attribution.

    Publications:   Start with Gulliver.   It excels for this type of investigation.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: heartofsklo on April 20, 2012, 08:32:36 PM
    Thank you Bernard for you info, much appreciated.

    Here is a closer image of the applied peacock eye pattern, each trail runs all of the way to the base of the flute.
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: heartofsklo on April 20, 2012, 11:04:42 PM
    Looking around Stuart & Sons did a lot of this peacock eye design, not only in two colour "eyes" but also in single colour and clear.
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: flying free on April 21, 2012, 12:00:54 AM
    Sorry it's difficult to tell from your photos how the 'eye' and trail were done?  is it an applied blob with the trail, or does it have a blob in the middle of a circle of glass which is pulled down into a trail? or it is an indented oval shape with a trail that comes off it?
    None of which answers would make it any clearer to me who did it, but knowing how the trail and eye were done may help in the future.
    I think Stuart did a kind of plainer blob eye and trail but it's only a guess that the catalogue pics I have are Stuart.  And I don't have any of this epergne unfortunately, they are all pics of vases.
    Stevens and Williams also did do an applied eye and trail type thing.

    If I get a chance I'll take some pics of the trails on my 'peacock eye ' pieces which are all different.
    m
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: Bernard C on April 21, 2012, 05:08:08 AM
    Quote from: flying free on April 21, 2012, 12:00:54 AM
    ...   Stevens and Williams also did do an applied eye and trail type thing.   ...

    How do you know?   If it's from a publication, either I've missed it or I don't have the publication.   I'd be most grateful for enlightenment as I try to keep my little library as up-to-date as possible.

    heartofsklo — Any chance of some photographs of the two rim crimps from above, please.   It's difficult making them out from a side view.

    Bernard C.  8)

    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: heartofsklo on April 21, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
    As requested, two images of the rim crimping, the bowl is more rounded and the trumpet is flattened/oval.
    The 'eye' is a blob which has been trailed down the stem.

    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: flying free on April 21, 2012, 10:08:18 AM
    Bernard I quoted the pattern numbers extensively in a previous thread where I also asked for information regarding Walsh and Stevens and Williams I believe, but unfortunately no one replied to my thread.
    Stevens and Williams did a type of eye and trail and on pieces with a crimped rim as I recall.  Although I cannot say if the crimp was the same as on this epergne as I've no time to look at the moment (kids home, footie/swimming lessons etc)  :) I'll try and get a look later.
    m
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: heartofsklo on April 22, 2012, 09:18:23 AM
    flying free - On a quick search for "Stevens and Williams tadpole glass" within google, on the images tab there are two images of such a piece signed "S&W" attributed to them. Although, the decoration does look heavier and more clumbsy in a way than the epergne, this might be because it is a small piece.
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: flying free on April 22, 2012, 09:27:12 AM
    Nice, and thanks for the link :) They are not the same as the trailed peacock eye ones that I have seen from the pattern books drawings though.  One of those is similar to your epergne I recall but I'm sure it was coloured whereas yours aren't.  Keep looking though, but I do think it may be quite hard to define the maker, but you will find some beautiful applied trail pieces en-route so it is worth it  :)
    I'll keep an eye out and see if I spot anything similar in books etc.  I have a whole load on order from the library so I'll remember to look.
    m
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: flying free on February 13, 2014, 01:29:26 PM
    I don't have any new information to add on this thread unfortunately, however would you object if the mods were asked to add
    'peacock eye trail style' to the subject heading?
    It just makes it easier to search for the subject and find the epergne in case something useful comes up in the future :)
    thanks
    m
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: heartofsklo on February 13, 2014, 03:37:38 PM
    Not at all flying free  :)
    Title: Re: Green and clear epergne with tadpole style pattern
    Post by: flying free on February 13, 2014, 03:42:18 PM
    thank you :) - I have asked.
    m
    Title: Re: Green & clear epergne + tadpole style pattern / peacock eye trail style
    Post by: flying free on February 13, 2014, 10:52:49 PM
    Thank you Anne :)
    m