Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ivo on May 01, 2012, 10:19:55 AM
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The chalice is 5"=12,5 cm high and ditto across; the base colour is silver nitratre amberish. No idea how the pontil mark was finished - it seems to be etched over.
The bottle is nearly 6" (14,5 irl) and quite lightweight. The neck is folded inward, the pontil mark is small and untreated.
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Is there a formal definition of 'Chalcedony' glass? or how it is made. I thought it was glass made to resemble stone?
there are a couple of pieces to the left of the piece on this link if you flick through.
I think these pics might be from the Corning
http://www.flickr.com/photos/unforth/3277669304/in/photostream/
m
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http://www.gardnerandbarr.com/gallery.htm
This one has similarities with your second piece in terms of decor.
m
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I'd typed this just prior to m posting..........so some of the information may now have been superseded, but I'll let it run.........
"quite probably, but the bottle more so than the chalice in my opinion, from looking at the pictures - the qualification being that the glass must replicate semi-precious stones such as onyx, agate, jasper, and of course chalcedony. My dictionary says it should be opaque, but when cut a little thin, most of these natural materials are sometimes translucent. I get the impression that the surface should be reflective (i.e. shiny) - the chalice looks matt from my angle. There are various web sites giving definitions - some with images."
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http://www.gardnerandbarr.com/glossary/chalcedony.htm
Gardner and Barr page on Chalcedony glass
I'm not sure I'd say the top piece was Chalcedony Ivo, and the bottom one looks a little 'transparent'.
m
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Hi Ivo i have emailed you . :-X i will give you a few quid for one of them then i will have a pair . . ;)
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m, we should have hyped them up more to increase the value, and got a commission. ;D
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ok, well I need to know what they are now. Are they chalcedony pieces? are they 19th c Italian?
m
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Hi M the bottom one is British circa 1890/1900 in my ever so humble opinion . jp ;) Not Chalcedony .
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Clutha?
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;D :-X ;)
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Clutha's bubbly.
I think these are both late 2Oth century, if not 21st.
I've been going demented trying to google a glassmaker, Ahmed Fouad, working in Alexandria - because he's done some very thin chalcedony-like work. I have a couple of bits, which I found in Germany a few years ago, but it looks like I'm going to have to get the camera out tomorrow.....
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Ivo, is there any chance please of uploading a picture that blows up much larger?
I can't see the detail in the decor :'(
thanks
m
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Anyone want to put money on it ? mine has been id by several people at a lecture at Huntercombe Manor where there were major collectors of Clutha glass . Ray Annenberg and i sold a massive piece that went to an exhibition in Milan with a friend of ours , he has since written a book containg new information on Clutha glass .
When i first joined the forum and mentioned my Hellen and Hana Walton bowls it was suggested they were not important or valuable , opinions seem to have changed now , so i do occasionally get things right also when i said Royo was Gordiola not Moser i was told i had it wrong . Ivos piece is in several books and sales catalogues . jp ::) , Ohhh i forgot to mention one small thing ... The Designer . Christopher Dresser
Knowledge is Power ;)
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http://www.fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/resultsLotDetails.asp?lotsID=19067&menuItemOn=2&salesID=56&hasImage=1
this has a similarish feel to the decor and no bubbles
Ivo, please please can we have a closer picture? I really would love to get a look at it as I've never seen a piece in real life :)
thanks
m
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I thought this one also looked similar - it does have bubbles in it on enlarged pics. http://collections.glasgowmuseums.com/viewimage.html?oid=50108&i=395113
m
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I have seen the collection of Clutha held by the Hungarian museum of decorative arts and all their pieces are large and thick. I have also noticed that if you google Chalcedony glass one of the first hits you get is a standard colour in lampworking prefabs - so I do believe lightweight items are made quite a lot. I will try and get some detail shots tomorrow in daylight of both these items. I think this discussion is fascinating.
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Three more pictures: the amber translucency, the detail on the outside which can be felt with a nail, and the underside...
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and three more of the small bottle - it would be fab if it were clutha but somehow it seems a bit smallish for that.
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Well for a start see Christopher Dresser by Stuart Durant page 128 Clutha vase by Dresser based on a Roman vase seen by Dresser at the British Museum that now is the V&A
The small vase to the right i have a candlestick based on that .
See also Exhibition catalogue New Century june 1999 Item G 002 with some small white streaks .
Michael Whiteway Christopher Dresser1834-1904 page 194 .
Dare i say ,,,, one of the Millers Guides as well .
Having seen your new pictures i wouldnt be surprised if you have two Dresser pieces . did they come from the same source ? although not a shape i have seen .
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Same market different dealers. I think the first one could be anything - even wmf lavaluna, rindskopf or murano.
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off topic but I needed your attention Ivo ;D
Are there any fleamarkets on Fridays in Amsterdam? or any recommendations for antiquey/vintage places open on Fridays please?
thanks :)
m
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Any other day of the week you could go to De Looier - the only antique mall. But they are closed on Fridays!
Waterlooplein has gone down and down - i have not been there for years. it is more for funky clothes which smell of patchouli.
other than that I wouldn't know.
Which Friday are you talking of specifically?
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Next Friday 11th and uuuhh I can't believe they are closed Friday. Typical though :) I haven't yet done our 'itinerary' but we will squash in museum or gallery type thing, some shopping maybe, and live music somehow ;D
m
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I see there have been no takers on my bet , the offer still stands .
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JP I'm with you. I think it is clutha (not that my saying that is anything to go on lol, just instinct). but I am curious, I was under the impression that Dresser pieces of clutha were marked.
m
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No M very few are marked but a friend has or had a marked one the same as Ivos and mine , i believe it was Liberty that insisted theirs were marked as was often the case in those days , also about the bubbles , its like saying its not Whitefriars because its not got bubbles but it was only a certain period that most pieces from Whitefriars were bubbled , if you check the books on Clutha the pictures show many pieces without bubbles , in the early books most pieces were bubbled because they didnt recognise the pieces without bubbles as Clutha , one of the best books on Dresser and Clutha is a fairly new book by a friend of mine Chris Morely , Chris is an associate of Harry Lyons , if you know Dresser say no more .
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yes I know both those names.
And I know what you mean about only certain pieces being known about. I now have numerous glass books and just took 5 out the library this week - the number of pieces of glass that are repeated from book to book is frankly....annoying. I was very disappointed with most of them. To be fair some are 'period' books so glass is just one part, but the paucity of pieces and repetition of known pieces was irritating.
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I tried to read all the responses, but somehow got lost along in the clutha the way. So pardon if this is out of place. Ivo, both pieces look like chalcedony glass to me. The first piece has more of a slag look, but I found other pieces online that resemble it that were called calcedonio by the makers.
The vase in the second picture at first look reminded me of some of the Phoenician glass, but when I looked closer, the calcedonio bands were obvious. Much of the new Murano calcedonio glass is partially transparent. Even if the glass layer is thin, it will still be calcedonio if the chemical/physical techniques are used. So being transparent wouldn't be a consideration. (I'm not saying your vase is newer, only that calcedonio doesn't have to be thick.)
The first item -- a footed vase? -- is particularly lovely. It reminds me of the classic calcedonio. The second is also nice, but doesn't have the same appeal.
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Thank you - you have just confirmed what i thought all along, that these are chalcedony glass. I have looked at hundreds of examples in the last couple of days and see that there are oodles of varieties - and even clutha is a variation on a theme.
As for clutha, i'll keep an open mind but i still think it is not vry likely
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well all i can add is that mine is identical to the one marked Clutha and Liberty . JP
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Thank you JP I will certainly keep that option open - it is just that I get nothing similar when I google image it.
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Still haven't managed pics, but I've not forgotten. :P
And I've now learned that Clutha doesn't have to be bubbly. :)
(I don't have any specialist books on older glass, just a couple of general encyclopedias.)
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well I don't know if this is helpful in this case now :-\ , but I wondered if you'd seen this link and thought I would post it just in case
http://www.christopherdresser.co.uk/collections/Glass/glass.html
m
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I have known the author of that great book by Chris Morley for about 20 years he was the one that sparked my interest in Dresser , i would have no hesitation in recommending the book . I still believe Ivo,s piece is Dresser .jp
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Seeing the pictures in the link makes me realize I don't know what clutha is. I had seen clutha like the picture on the right, as well as clutha that has a band of color flowing, but this is the first I've seen of the clutha that is in the picture on the left. The vase looks like calcedonio to me. Can anyone explain the technique of clutha?
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Clutha is supposedly named after the Clyde, the murky cloudy river in Glasgow. Hence it has uncertain streaks and uncertain bubbles, and if you stare at it long enough, dead things float by.
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That is pretty much what I read, Ivo -- that the word means "river." When looking at the things that I knew were clutha, I could see the flow of the bands, so understood. The calcedonio-looking vase in the link to me is a new look for clutha. I have a vase that has a similar rim. I thought my vase was calcedonio. Now I wonder if it is clutha. I included pictures below. The pictures were taken using flash, so the colors stand out a lot brighter than they are in normal light.
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After seriously comparing the vases (mine and the CD clutha in the link), there are so many differences in the glass. Still I am going to have to broaden my idea on the appearance of clutha.
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Ivo the dead things floating by are English and Dutchmen who try to tell Sue Scottish jokes . ;)
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Wow, so original JP. Do you write for Kevin Bridges?
John
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I see your IBS is still playing you up john , have you thought of seeing a proctologist ?
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Hi Anita, I'm glad it was helpful for comparison :)
m
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I think this may be relevant - recycled glass from Hebron, would you evah!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-blown-Phoenician-style-art-glass-vase-PGV08L-Narrow-Neck-Vase-/280781127929?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415fdc00f9#ht_500wt_1180
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I see what you are saying but what about those that have turned up signed to the base Christopher Dresser for liberty ? it was either Harry Lyons or Chris Morley both respected Dresser authors that had one and there are some in museums , i would like to know how long the Hebron ones have been made , i have had mine about 20/ 25 years it has a kick base and rough pontil . Pity no base picture on the hebron one .
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The Hebron one looks more like swirls on the glass than in it
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they seem to have been around for a while
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron_glass
and if you use google image for hebron glass you might get a shock - there is a ton of it.
I was not convinced of the CD attribution because I have seen the CD collection in the Budapest museum. Those pieces are all much larger, well finished and properly signed with a full cartouche for Cooper and the CD sig.
In any case, both the items at issue have now been ID'd as Hebron glass. Or azaz-al-khalili, if you like.
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Persistence pays off ;D
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I've just stubbled on this topic and read it through.
When John was suggesting Dresser and giving a prize (money????) for getting the right answer I was wondering Sowerby, by Dresser. Smaller, lighter and less consistant than even Clutha by James Cowper & Sons.
However, I'm pleased that you have your ID Ivo :)
Nigel
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Nigel have you had a good look at the second of Ivo,s it looks nothing like the first compare it to the signed one Harry Lyons had and a few in Chris M S , book can you not see the similarity and thats just a picture also why do people believe all dressers glass has bubbles and were massive!!! i never said Ivos was definately Dresser but a suggestion of the pissibolity . isnt that what the forum is about ?
;D ps i never offered a prize i said i would buy it for a couple of Rupees then i would have a pair
. :P
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Didn't bother with the books John, just a gut reaction that I was sharing, given the size of the pieces.
You may well be right, but Ivo's made a decision that he's content with.
I shouldn't have been looking at the GMB, but I've at last sorted out my domain and email problems and I thought I'd have a quick looksee as a breather. Unfortunately no time to wade through the Dresser library at the minute, so I'll have a look by and by.
Shame about the prize....I didn't think it sounded like you ;) :)
Nigel
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Now you've got your domain sorted Nigel - are you going to put a link in your signature so I/we all can have a browse? Please?
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Hi Sue,
Yes, I thought that disappeared with the 'new' style site for the GMB, but all you have to do is click on the world icon below my/anyones name d interest block, and you get straight through to the correct site. (Current in my case!).
Thanks, Nigel
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Thanks, Nigel - I love the new name - says it all!