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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: goyjus on May 08, 2012, 07:54:18 PM

Title: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 08, 2012, 07:54:18 PM
Can anyone help me date/identify this glass?

It has a raised nipple type design and has a rough pontil with a dome of glass over the top.

Any info appreciated...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 08, 2012, 07:56:00 PM
Here's the base with domed pontil...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: Greg. on May 08, 2012, 09:45:48 PM
Webb Bulls Eye glass, circa 1920s ish gets my vote.  :)
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 08, 2012, 09:50:23 PM
Hi. Cheers Greg. I wondered if it might Webbs. I have two of them - but they are not uniform in shape/size. So that's why I thought they may be earlier. Any thoughts?   
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: Greg. on May 08, 2012, 09:54:48 PM
Just thinking about the date, I not 100% sure to be honest, although I think they were produced over quite a few years, some marked and some not. I presume they don't have any faint markings underneath..?

I think there are a few other examples on the board from memory. Sorry I can't help further with a more accurate date.

 :)
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 08, 2012, 10:11:59 PM
No worries, Greg. I've looked for a mark but can't see any trace of one.
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 08, 2012, 11:20:23 PM
I'd have said Webbs until recently,if I remember right there was something similar a while ago on the board,I have quite a few pieces of 'bullseye' and none have bases like this one,they all have polished pontil marks,although not all are marked so I'm not so sure about yours ??? ??? ;D
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: Bernard C on May 09, 2012, 04:49:32 AM
Anthony — until quite recently there were always major trade buyers who did not want their glass marked.   This applied even to prestigious designer signature ranges, with roughly half of Keith Murray's and roughly 10%–20% of Clyne Farquharson's unsigned (my guesstimates).   If you didn't conform, you didn't get the order — so you conformed.

A significant proportion of Webb's Gay Glass was unmarked, probably mostly for this reason.   Other reasons include poor administration at stock control / order processing, and the acid on the stamp going dry as the girl worked her way down the row of inverted glasses.

Greg — I would have thought a little later, circa 1930s or possibly postwar.   It's quite a Deco shape.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: Lustrousstone on May 09, 2012, 06:31:01 AM
They don't look quite regular enough and too pointy to be Webb's bullseye. Can you feel where the nipples are on the inside just ever so slightly?
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 09, 2012, 09:43:08 AM
Thanks for this Christine. I will check on the 'nipples' this evening!

In the meantime, I found this on another site:

http://www.legacyantiques.co.uk/index.php/glass/british-glass/thomas-webb/pair-of-thomas-webb-bullseye-design-cocktail-glasses-in-amber.html
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 09, 2012, 06:37:37 PM
Hi Christine - I've had a feel of the nipples and there's a definite protuberance ;-)

Does this tell you anything?

I've also got a water jug - but this has a big ground out polished pontil to the base.

There's a lovely ring to both of them...

I have two of the glasses but they're irregular sizes. Does this signify anything?
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: Lustrousstone on May 09, 2012, 06:51:05 PM
I don't know. It certainly looks like the amber Webb's glass.
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 09, 2012, 07:17:39 PM
I've not seen a 'bullseye' jug,any chance of a picture,please ;D ;D
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 10, 2012, 08:45:47 AM
Hi Keith - sure, no problem. I'm out tonight but I'll try and get a pic up tomorrow evening.
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 11, 2012, 11:28:54 AM
Thanks for all your comments so far - much appreciated.

Here's a picture of the water jug...

Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 11, 2012, 11:29:53 AM
And here's a pic of the base with large polished pontil:

Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 11, 2012, 02:54:00 PM
Thanks Anthony,the handle's a bit different to most I've seen on this type of glass with that  flattened top,usually like these.....(excuse dust)
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 11, 2012, 03:06:45 PM
Thanks for posting these. Here's a pic of the two glasses side by side - not sure if it's obvious from the picture but they are different heights and the one is more flared than the other. I bought all three together. Do you think they're just a mis-match?
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: Lustrousstone on May 11, 2012, 03:33:24 PM
They may have just been bought at slightly different times, i.e., one is a replacement.
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 11, 2012, 03:48:47 PM
Thanks Christine!
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: Bernard C on May 11, 2012, 03:58:49 PM
Anthony — If you were supplying Liberty's, order processing would pick six perfectly matching.   If you were supplying Tin Pot General Store, Anytown, order processing would pick all those oddities at the back of the shelf.   That's the way it's always been, and still is.

The most interesting atlas I ever had through my hands was a mid-Victorian Hobson's Fox-Hunting Atlas, made up for an insignificant farmer in Derbyshire.   The Derbyshire map and other nearby county maps were fine, but Cornwall and Devon had the wrong county overprints!   As a result the atlas turned out to be really important to cartobibliographers, and gets special mention in recently published county cartobibliographies, such as Eugene Burden's Berkshire and Ray Carroll's Lincolnshire.

I like mixed sets and generally sell them at a premium.   Last year I had a set of Webb Corbett stems, obviously by two different cutters, so I split them into disparate pairs. and sold them all at one fair.   Much more interesting than all the same.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 11, 2012, 04:06:20 PM
Thanks for this, Bernard.

I tend to agree that difference is more interesting than uniformity...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: bfg on May 11, 2012, 04:13:59 PM
I've got 2 or 3 of these, all slightly different - I held onto them as they are unsigned and I was never able to get a definitive Webb ID on them. That's almost the whole set, think we only need one more between us :-)

Mel
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 11, 2012, 04:15:58 PM
Cheers Mel. Maybe if we can find a sixth we can get together and hold a small dinner party ;-)
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 11, 2012, 07:09:24 PM
Quick question to Mel and Anthony,do all of your glasses have the same type of pontil mark?
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 11, 2012, 09:02:30 PM
Yes, my two glasses have the same pontil. But where the base meets the meets the main glass, it's slightly different. And whereas the base on the one is round the other is irregular...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: bfg on May 12, 2012, 09:49:44 AM
I will have to go off and investigate.............back later :-)
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 12, 2012, 10:48:07 AM
Great. Thanks. I'll look out for your message...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: bfg on May 12, 2012, 03:27:34 PM
Ok, well I've dug them out of the garage :-)

two rows of nipples, set on a slight squiff, (similar to the amber ones in the link) the top row being larger nipps than the bottom row

5" tall, 31/2" across the top

slight dome on the underside but no sign of a pontil mark - the base looks machine finished,  with a gadget mark.

This may be why I gave up trying to attribute them as Webb pieces and put them into storage

probably not much help, sorry

Mel
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 12, 2012, 06:37:33 PM
Wonder why these small glasses have pontil marks like that by which I mean none I've seen or have are like it,I've quite a few,must get some of these ;D,all the Webb pieces here have polished pontil marks.
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: flying free on May 12, 2012, 08:27:39 PM
Is it possible to see a clearer picture of the different pontil marks please/  and when you say its rough with clear blob over it, is it snapped off and the clear blob is part of the pontil mark?  or is it a domed shape in the middle of the foot?  I'm a little confused as to whether both sets are the same pontil mark and how they were done and finished.  Sorry for the inquisition but I'm curious about Thomas Webb's pontil marks as up to now I've only come across one piece without a polished pontil mark and that was an attribution I think, rather than a definite id.
m
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 16, 2012, 09:45:22 AM
Hi. Sorry, I missed your post until today.

Will take some more pictures.

There is a rough pontil mark beneath smooth glass. The one piece is more of a slight dome - the other is flatter. Sorry, not sure if that's a help or not. Where the stem of the glass meets the foot is different too.

Will post some pics asap.
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 16, 2012, 09:57:27 AM
Here's some more pics - sorry, best I can do... any further thoughts welcome...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 16, 2012, 09:59:01 AM
And on the same glass...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 16, 2012, 10:00:40 AM
and the other glass...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: flying free on May 16, 2012, 10:04:15 AM
Thank you
I think...although I could be wrong, that the one with the clear glass blob over it is known as a button pontil mark?  A neat way of finishing it, I like these  :)
I'm interested in the other that has a snapped off pontil mark yes? but on the same piece  also has the 'coil' of applied glass between the stem and the foot forming a merese. 
Thank you for posting the pictures.  If these are positively id'd as Thomas Webb that helps me with another piece I am investigating.
m
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 16, 2012, 10:07:23 AM
You're welcome.

Does they way in which they're made indicate an earlier date? I know most people have said 20s/30s but they just 'feel' like they are older. But I can't entirely say why...
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 16, 2012, 10:23:35 AM
The marks on the 'bullseye' pieces I have relates to 1950-66,
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 16, 2012, 10:29:20 AM
Thanks Keith - much appreciated!
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 16, 2012, 02:18:59 PM
Is a merese the blob of glass around the stem where it joins the foot?new word for me ::)
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: flying free on May 16, 2012, 02:35:31 PM
yes, sometimes it is like a blob that both bits are 'pushed' into from top and bottom, but I was told that the ring around the foot of the vase I'm investigating is also a merese.   It looks like this one as though the foot has been applied to stem but then afterwards a coil of glass has been applied decoratively round the join to cover it up (ie not a functional 'joining' merese as it were)
That is what I was told at Broadfield House....or at least that is how I remember it  :-\  I'm sure I will be corrected quite swiftly  ;D
m
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: oldglassman on May 16, 2012, 03:15:29 PM
HI ,
         I think the attached photos should show what is known as a Merese, a blade like knop separating other knops or a bowl from a stem ,the ring around the base of a stem I believe is termed as simply a reinforcing ring , added by the gaffer if the stem to foot joint was needing a little support , this feature is most commonly seen on16th and 17th c glasses with very thin stems,why it would be on the OP's glass i have no idea .

cheers ,
  Peter.
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: flying free on May 16, 2012, 03:36:09 PM
thank you  :)  and sorry for misleading anyone if I did so, but that is what I recall being told.
What you call a 'reinforcing join'  is also on some Walsh Walsh glasses I think as a decorative thing and on three vases I am investigating at the moment, which I do not believe are older than 1877 and probably not older than 1900-1910.
m
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 16, 2012, 05:17:58 PM
Ta, ;D ;D
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: goyjus on May 18, 2012, 03:07:21 PM
The jug and the glasses I originally posted have been confirmed as being by Thomas Webb by Sarah Shirley-Priest at Bonhams - in case anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: flying free on May 18, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
Thank you for letting us know  :)
m
Title: Re: Georgian? Victorian? Glass with domed pontil mark
Post by: keith on May 18, 2012, 03:52:09 PM
Bonhams,what do they know ::) ;D ;D :o