Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Sklounion on April 03, 2006, 06:10:27 AM
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Thanks to a chance remark by Bryn, and a comment from Ivo, an enigma has emerged.
I'd like to ask you to look at these images:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10018/LSmrckovajug.jpg
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10018/normal_LSmrckovaDPsets.jpg
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10018/normal_LoetzbandII.jpg
The first is an image of a water jug I have recently bought. The second two are images from;
a) a Druzstevni Prace catalogue from the early 1930's,
b) an image from Loetz Band II, Katalog der Musterschnitte, kindly forwarded to me by Eddy Scheepers of www.loetz.com.
Does the jug look the same/similar?
Now, the Loetz jug is often attributed to Koloman Moser, by collectors of Loetz
The Druzstevni Prace jug is never so attributed.
Having spoken to two different Czech specialists, one a curator of Glass at MSB, Jablonec nad Nisou, the other a former head curator of 20th century glass at UPM Prague, there is no question that the jug in the Druzstevni Prace catalogue was designed by Ludvika Smrckova, for Antonin Ruckl, and made, certainly from design date, at Nova hut' Nizbor, Czechoslovakia.
This ID is also made clear in Milos B Volf's Sklo: Podstata, Krasa, Uziti, published in 1947.
So, is it the same jug, the same design by both companies?
Did Loetz copy the design? and if so, from what date?
I am intrigued...... did I buy a Ruckl original, (as a Smrckova design), or a Loetz look-alike?
Your thoughts, please.
TIA,
Marcus
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There would seem to be some difference in shape betweeen them.
The Smrkova looks more uniformally barrel shaped.
The Loetz looks less uniform - the belly lower, more prominent ? and seems to rise almost vertically from there to the spout which is less well defined and less prominent from the body on the Smrkova.
The outside of the handle on the Moser sems to form a definate bulge instead of being in line with the curve of the Smrkova.
I am tentative in these observations because the differences are subtle and I am aware that even a slightly different angle of view and differences in lighting can have an effect.
What info does Eddie have on the date of the Moser catalogue ? and the measurements of the Moser jug ?
Given that the Wiener Werkstätte was operating from 1905-1932 and that designs were often contracted out to outside makers for manuifacture, the Koloman Moser association is theoretically possible. However it would be interesting to see some evidence or at least expert opinion on this.
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Loetz jug looks quite different to me, so yours is not Loetz.
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Hi,
Using the scale on Eddy's image the jug is @20cms high, and 7-8cms at the base.
The Smrckova is 20cms high and 8 at the base. I'm not convinced that we are not looking at the same design being produced by two major Czechoslovakian companies at the same time.
Regards,
Marcus
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Thanks for finally solving this mystery and making the glass world more transparent, Marcus! There seems to be little doubt that yours, like mine, is a Smrckova from Ruckl and was not produced by Loetz; and it is also easy to understand how the two came to be confused. The fact that Loetz stopped producing in the 40s, while Ruckl is still in business today may have added to the confusion - any idea for how long Ruckl continued production?
http://i2.tinypic.com/sx19g3.jpg Mod: Dead link
What I'd like to see is a picture of the certified Koloman Moser one! I'm sure it is a bit more refined and hand made than the roughshod Ruckl...
http://i2.tinypic.com/sx2oig.jpg Mod: Dead link
juxtaposed them for discussion sake....
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Looking at all three pics side by side (thanks Ivo that's such a help) the Loetz one and Ivo's look very close to me, but the centre one (Marcus' one) looks sufficiently different to them both for me to query it being the same maker.
Marcus is a picture of yours possible from the same angle as Ivo's please?
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Hi,
I will do some new images this morning and post them later.
Eddy Scheepers tells me that the Loetz jug also came in a 27cm high version. I have no knowledge as to whether the Druzstevni Prace jug came in differing sizes but will try to contact Ruckl by e-mail to-day and ask about sizes, and duration of production.
These were mould blown, and inevitably as hand produced items, there will be some variation between pieces during finishing etc....
There are now seven new images of the jug sitting in my Palsby images folder at Glass Gallery. feel free to use them for comparison.
Regards,
Marcus
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Marcus, thanks for the extra pics. They really confirm my view that your jug is not the same as Ivo's or the Lotz one in the catalogue. To me, your jug is more like the Smrckova one, Marcus.
Marcus one is a more curved barrel shape, the handle stays within the barrel shape profile, and the lip is more beaked downwards. This is the same profile as the one shown in the Smrckova catalogue view.
Ivo's and the Lotz catalogue ones are straighter from the belly to the spout, the handle bulges out beyond the barrel profile, and the spout tips slightly up and out rather than beaking downwards.
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Hi all,
I think that I'm going to add another dimension to this discussion.
Some years ago Jeanette Hayhurst bought a clear version of this jug, but with a distinct difference. It has vertical rows of air-trap bubbles, which is not just synonimous with S&W, but was a technique patented (from memory) by them - sorry can't remember the name. There is a short article about it with photos of a crackle version and the air-trap one in a Glass Association "Glass Cone" from some years back.
Furthermore, both Jeanette and I have ceramic versions, one of hers is from one of the Devon potteries. There are variations on all the pottery ones, but Jeanette's one is vertually identical.
(Sorry, very tired from sorting loads of things out before having to go away for a few days. If I can remember, I'll look out the reference for the S&W when I get back.)
Nigel
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Look what I just found
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7408482771 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7408482771) Mod: Dead link an enigma in uranium without mould lines but with handmade seams instead :?
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Here's a picture of a jug I bought a while ago.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10011/Picture%201526.jpg
It looks like Le Casson's jug but the lip is more like Ivo's jug. That might rules out the curved over lip as being a way to identify Moser from the Smrckova jug.
Look what I just found http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7408482771 an enigma in uranium without mould lines but with handmade seams instead
The handle on that one seems to be more rounded in the centre so we have three variations of design, er, I think.
The seam also appears on the inside of the handle on my jug and it's very wonkey looking so I guess that means it has handmade seams? The seam goes round in a full circle. Not litarally a circle though, more of an oblong circle if you know what I mean. :roll:
As Nigel points out, there is yet another similar one. :shock:
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I was being a bit sarcastic about hand made seams! If it didn't need a mould it wouldn't need seams
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Just to add more fuel to the Enigma fire. I think this one has only an indentation one side to act as the handle. In other words, the handle isn't totally separate from the body of the jug:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&item=300006546349&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1 Mod: Dead link
More pics in a couple of days if anyone wants them. :wink:
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:D :shock: :D
I've just picked up one of these, the same as Marcus' one, not the others. It's 22cm tall, 8cm at the base. Handle in line with the barrel shape, slightly wobbly top rim.
I'd say there are no mould lines at all.
Obviously, the handle is formed by cutting the hot glass and reforming the shape - much like some vases you see with holes through them. There are lines inside the handle which, to me at any rate, confirm this.
This is an exceptionally difficult and complex thing to do with hot glass!
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Hi,
Just to throw this into even greater confusion, I have been sent an e-mail by Eddy Scheepers, of www.loetz.com with a image showing two of these jugs, in the Passauer Glasmuseum. The Museum's attribution.....Harrachov...... which possibly means at least three manufacturers making very similar items.
Regards,
Marcus
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Hi Marcus,
I've tried the link but can't seem to navigate to the page with the illustration you refer to. Can you help please? I have one of these jugs too and will post a picture soon - just wanted to do as much research as I could first.
Thank you
Cat
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Hi Cat,
I'm not sure which link is not working.
Regards,
Marcus
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The Loetz link works but takes you to a home page and I couldn't find where to go from there for the picture of the two jugs. Probably just me being a bit stooopid.......
Thanks
Cat
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Hi Cat,
Currently I do not have Eddy's permission to publish the image, and tho' I am sure he would not mind... I must ask for consent. Eddy's image has these two styles of jugs side by side, but both types have been shown in this thread.
Regards,
Marcus
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I found this thread confusing and fascinating. Hopefully this won't just make it more confusing.
My jug is also 20cm high x 8cm base dia, almost perfect barrel shape.....so like Marcus's jug, and the "finish" looks more like the photo of Marcus's jug. However, the spout is definitely more up than down, unlike Marcus's. So either it's the same maker and, as has been suggested, the spouts vary, or it's different.
The only seam runs down the back of the handle, across and up the body and then back to the top of the handle. It is well finished - very smooth - and took me a while to find the seam at the back of the handle.
The top edge is very thick (c.7mm) and flat - I wondered if thickness of the glass might help narrow down IDs - or are they all very thick and flat at the top?
Although I can run a nail down the veins, the finish on the piece is very smooth under the flat of a hand.
Jug (white background)
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10086/smaller_enigma_jug_white_backDSCN1029.jpg
Jug (blue background)
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10086/smaller_enigma_jug_blue_backDSCN1037.jpg
Rim detail - sorry couldn't get it to focus
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10086/enigma_jug_rimDSCN1038.jpg
Seam detail
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10086/smaller_enigma_jug_seamDSCN1035.jpg
Thank you
Cat
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Another to consider
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180114861944 Mod: Dead link
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Different handle on this one. :spls:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230188935841 Mod: Dead link
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Weird! Looks awful by comparison! Is it really Loetz or just an amateurish attempt to copy the style?
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Crackle looks all wrong too, much too crackly; the other ones look more veined than crackly
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A pair of these are shown in Glass Cone 19, 1988, not text just a caption giving credit to designer Koloman Moser c1900 (Manchester City Art Gallery)
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I've just been talking to Marcus on the phone and he asked me to update this topic for him: Marcus has found a Loetz Enigma jug which now he can compare with the Smrckova version as above and has noted some important differences....
The handle on the Loetz jug is applied, it is not an integral part like the Smrckova version. On the Loetz version two holes are made in the body and the handle which is made from a hand-rolled piece of glass is applied into the holes.
The base of the Loetz version has a polished pontil mark also, whereas the Smrckova does not.
The finish is noticeably different also, the Loetz version, although craquele, is smooth to the touch, whereas the Smrckova one is quite sharp and rough to the touch.
The quality of the Loetz version is much superior to the Smrckova version. I think that covers the basics, though Marcus may add more when he's next on the board.
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Just a little notice - I have the same shape of jug not in clear and crackeled but in red tango glas.
Jindrich
It had been always attributed to Koloman Moser for Loetz.
Jindrich
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I'm not absolutely sure what Marcus said is correct, as a rule of thumb.
My jug is crackled but pretty smooth to the touch.
It has a large polished pontil mark - not perfectly round.
The handle is integral, not applied.
There is no bulge in the handle. The seam runs around the entire inside of it.
I have only just noticed some vertical tool marks, under the handle.