Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on September 03, 2012, 03:05:19 PM
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took me a while to figure this out. I'm assuming that is what this is, but it might not be as I seem to only be able to find silver ones.
It measures 5" diameter by 1 1/4" high and has a 24point star cut base which looks pretty amazing to me. The handle is dabbed on the side then looped over and back on itself, all perfect.
Any help much appreciated please as I know absolutely nothing about these.
Have just lost the previous post as my pics were apparently too large grrrr so apologies for the brevity.
m
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not having much luck re your suggestions m - can really only say that the 24 point star has its origins somewhere around 1830 - 40, otherwise nothing serious.
Had you considered a 'nappie' - a circular dish with flat bottom and slightly curving sides - some kind of sauce dish used in the States in the earlier part of the C20 (or earlier for all I know).
sorry not of much use. :)
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thanks for looking Paul. Looking at it, I may be mistaken but I feel fairly sure it is quite old...at least older than earlier 20thC -picture three held up against the window shows the glass quite well.
Taste-vin were made in glass as well and from what I've read go back to starting c. the 16thC., but I've not been able to find any pics of any old ones regardless of Century...perhaps they got broken? I don't know. It is wider than the silver ones I see as well they tend to be much smaller than the 5"of this one. Also the handle is a little more raised up than the silver ones. So maybe it isn't a taste-vin. Perhaps it is some sort of sauce thingy.
I must admit I'd thought (was hoping ;D ) you might find something on it :)
thanks for looking though.
m
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ok yes, having searched using 'nappy' it definitely looks like a nappy. So would that make it 20thc American? or did these one handled bowls occur in Europe as well do you know please?
thanks :)
m
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Yes these bowls were made in Europe; certainly in pressed form, so why not blown and cut. Sometimes they are ice dishes; sometimes berry bowls or even specifically strawberry bowls
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thanks :0
so are we definitely talking 20th century rather than earlier then?
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the answer to that question may come more from an evaluation of the glass itself. You'll need to look at colour, purity, evidence of wear etc. - in other words all the usual clues we look for when trying to determine age. That's assuming we have no chance of finding this particular pattern in the books, which is probably unlikely. With an object like this, wear might be the best indicator - if there is very little, then most likely C20.
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no wear at all ::) are we talking new? in which case why is the glass so full of wreathing (?is that a word lol)
m
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Striations I think you mean (I think). Could equally be late 19th C. Wear or lack thereof can be very misleading.
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striations are fine ;D but writhen is the word I should have used I think or what I was thinking of :)
I don't think it's new despite there being no wear but I've not been able to find anything like this except pressed glass examples. I have found a couple of cranberry glass examples but they aren't flat and have shell feet.
The handle looks very similar to those on the pressed glass pieces and the cranberry pieces so probably around late 19th earliest I would guess then? Nothing in any of my books that even resembles or talks about this sort of thing.
One for the shelf until another one pops up I think.
Thanks both for your help and for looking.
m
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probably striations rather than wrythen, which is a spiral looking pattern created deliberately.
Christine is of course correct re comments about wear, but I've noticed that on pieces with large cut stars, the wear can be elusive to the eye. Sometimes it's necessary to look at the sharp ridges between the arms of the star - and since these can be quite fine, then 'seeing' the wear is less easy than had the object rested on a flat base etc.
Having looked at a lot of cut glass, I'm inclined to think there is a difference between old and new........old is sharper, usually, and the grinding marks (within the cuts) often remain more noticeable on older pieces.
Having looked through some books, this seems an elusive object, and writers (on table glass) you might have expected to have referred to them, seem not to......i.e. Barbara Morris - John Brooks - Felice Mehlman...........and those that do i.e. Manley and Millers seem only to refer to pressed examples. Manley calls it a 'fruit bowl - he shows the standard Davidson pressed version (which I have in yellow pearline) - Ivo says simply 'Nappy = bowl'.
Harold Newman (in his dictionary) says 'nappie - and gives the States as the instigator of the design and quotes B.&S. producing them in Lacy Glass.
The most unlikely one being the Chippendale handleless example in Andy McConnell's version of Miller's - quite interesting reading on page 113 - being most definitely a States example from the original 1917 catalogue. A satin-finished green bowl having a rim formed of large scallops - but definitely described as a 'nappy' (a rimless open dish).
So possibly just a vernacular name for a small bowl (which is what Ivo says ;)
no way any cut examples though - sorry. :)
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Thanks so much Paul!
I'd been through Felicity's book and alll others I own but nothing either. It's strange to be able to find lots of pressed versions but none blown.
I've had to look very carefully under a strong magnifier to spot any wear but yes there is some on the high spots between the star cuts...not visible to the naked eye on casual close looking though. I've attached a picture where you might be able to see some and also the striations on the cut edges of the star hopefully (the edges at 7 and 8 o'clock).
Thanks again for taking so much time to look this up for me. I appreciate it.
m
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According to Webb's their version of this shape was called a 'sweet dish' :)
m
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you don't quote your source for this information m.......... Anne will be cross ;) I think I've also heard them called bon bon dishes, and don't forget the other names that Christine mentioned.
As we've said, use of the word 'nappy' to describe these things seems to be of States origin - although what it derives from I've no idea, it seems to go back to at least the mid C19 - I've looked in the Shorter OED, and nothing there for the U.K.
However, there is much use made of the word in a slang context, and in that sense it seems almost exclusively U.S., either as a prefix or simply on its own.
Since it's only teatime on the east coast, prehaps someone from the States can tell us the origin of the word. :)
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aah well Paul - just for now I'm keeping the source secret :) however I have to admit the name of it was stated by a retailer of a Webb's range, so it could well be that was the name the retailer gave to it, not Webb's. But I would think that if it wasn't a Webb's description, then the retailer would be using a description that the general public understood (to maximise their sales)- so I think I will call it a sweet dish for now.
m
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sorry if it sounded as though I was doubting you - not in the least m. I'm sure that's what it was called, and assume the 'sweets' were those things that came from what we called sweet shops, where you could buy 'a quarter' of whatever, or two ozs. if you were poor.
You could be right about the name being possibly given by the retailer.
Edited to add: Obviously not looking at the books carefully enough!! Just noticed that one of the Silber & Fleming volumes - from the early 1880's - shows several of these handled dishes, with both cut and pressed decoration (page 159) - all of which they call 'Jelly or Sweetmeat Dishes', and in sizes ranging from 4 - 6 inches. So, do you fancy slurping your custard or jelly out of such a shallow dish?? :)
So I wonder if your name of sweet dish might in fact have more to do with culinary matters than boiled sweets in wrappers?
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thanks again for taking another look :) I do appreciate it Paul. I wonder if the little handle was for holding the bowl still with one hand whilst using a spoon to sup your 'sweet' from the dish? a little like a handled soup dish.
However I must say the Webb one I've seen had a higher rim and a wider base and mine is shallow by comparison so I can't imagine supping much out of my bowl. Perhaps mine is a jelly? wasn't jelly a kind of savoury jam type thing?
m
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need to try and find my notes but I visited the Museum of Fine Art in Valencia last week and there was one of these in there. Star cut base, engraved and gilded decoration, identified as La Granja San Ildefonso 19th century iirc. but I need to check. Sorry no pics as didn't have camera - but what an amazing museum, definitely worth a visit.
m
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quote...............identified as La Granja San Ildefonso 19th century iirc........definitely worth a visit".........sorry, too far to go just to check up on a nappy. How can you go on hols without a brownie?? Look forward to interpretation some time. ;) :)
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aah, can't find notes at mo, no camera as been many times before:)
think it was definitely mid 19th.
The museum was mostly paintings. There were two or three pieces of glass I think. I nearly missed this one. It was in a separate 'combined display cabinet' of wooden items, brass, ceramic, a large sort of lidded punch bowl thingy and then this small bowl just caught my eye. So the shape I believe dates to 19th and was used in Spain I guess. There was no definition as to what it was used for though unfortunately. I asked the curator but was just given the sheet that said made by La Granja. Exact same shape and more or less size though (couldn't get it out to measure it lol but it looked exactly the same as mine).
m
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museum sheet now found
La Granja c.1850
so the shape dates to at least then, and possibly was used in Spain.
It's a curious thing with the upright handle. Christine said these were used as ice dishes or berry dishes or sometimes strawberry dishes. Paul mentioned sweetmeat dishes. Any more thoughts on usage anyone now we know they were produced in Spain as well, or can we settle on ice or berry or sweetmeat dish please?
m
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thanks m.......... looking at U.K. books again today, I get the feeling these things were'nt really our bag - seems mostly they were States pieces from the mid C19, with only ocassional appearance elsewhere. The OED doesn't give a glass receptacle as one of the uses of the word. Seems they may not have gone back much more than about 1840/50 - but daresay someone from the other side of the pond will now tell us otherwise. A dish for sauces has certainly been mentioned in the books - which would make sense - shallow and wide for easy spoon access.
How about for putting your Seville marmalde in ;)
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Thank you for looking up further info Paul :) I like the Seville suggestion ;D
I just don't 'feel' my bowl is American to be honest .... it was also bought locally, not off ebay - I know... that's not saying anything, but perhaps adds to my feeling it's not American maybe.
Thinking of whether they were used in the UK or not, this pressed Davidson bowl is in the V&A c1885 and has that same upright handle also named as a sweetmeat dish. So presumably if Davidson were making 'sweetmeat' bowls with the upright handle, they were making them because they were popular....somewhere. I suppose it's possible they were making them for an American market, but isn't it also possible they were making them for a UK market? presumably because they were used here?
It's difficult isn't it? I know what you mean about it not feeling as though it's a very British item, you don't see many popping up all over the place, and I also haven't come across them in my books and I don't have as many relevant ones as you do. But possibly they were quite popular but we just don't know that much about them still? I'm still leaning towards mine being an earlier piece than 1895 because of the glass and the star cut base (but I'm probably going to turn out to be wrong lol :) )m
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think I've become a little wary of too much reliance on star formation as an infalible date guide - it's o.k. if the rest of the package fits, but I'm sure I occasionally see C19 star patterns on much later glass.
It might be a useful exercise to look at C20 cut glass say, and see how many C19 star formations are found.
I really only locked onto the States comment re origin, because that was Newman's comment in his dictionary - although it's true that you see them here only very infrequently. :)
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a signed Webb Corbett blown and cut glass bowl in a similar shape with handle but a lot bigger at 8" diameter - mine is 5"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WEBB-CORBETT-England-Cut-Crystal-Signed-English-Art-Glass-Large-8-Handled-Bowl-/190810910933?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6d3770d5
m
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quote...............'signed'...........tut - tut ;)
'S' for Stourbridge, as we've discussed before, as opposed to 'T' for Tutbury. I did once rashly say that these letters indicated a manufacturing date that was restricted to the late 1940's, but was brought up short by the more clever folk who were of the opinion the time period was quite possibly longer. So I blamed Roger Dodsworth for my error ;)
Well, at least we know for certain that nappies were made in the U.K. - quite a large example too.
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Georgian-Glass-Wine-Taster-c1820-/201071343474?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item2ed0c93772
Err this one is listed as a tastevin. I can see the bowl shape is slightly more squared than mine which is more curved. But what makes this a Georgian tastevin and mine a possibly 20th century berry bowl would be my question.
m
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Alex is very good, usually, and would assume he's done his research - am sure he'd be happy to discuss this piece with you.
There seem to be several people bidding so assume description to be bona fide and known to the Georgian collectors.
Looking back, I'm now unsure where you sourced the title for this thread m - where did you find reference to your description of 'old glass wine taster? tastevin' - sorry if you have detailed this and I've missed it.
Have looked through my few books and regret don't have any information on these pieces - so as Alex says, few have survived and now rare. :)
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From a French wine site :) but although I found references to those made from glass as well as silver, I could only find any in silver at the time I posted this. Mine appears to be a similar size to the ebay one (and yes, the bidding was what made me question whether I might revisit an id for mine :) )
'thanks for looking Paul. Looking at it, I may be mistaken but I feel fairly sure it is quite old...at least older than earlier 20thC -picture three held up against the window shows the glass quite well.
Taste-vin were made in glass as well and from what I've read go back to starting c. the 16thC., but I've not been able to find any pics of any old ones regardless of Century...perhaps they got broken? I don't know. It is wider than the silver ones I see as well they tend to be much smaller than the 5"of this one. Also the handle is a little more raised up than the silver ones. So maybe it isn't a taste-vin. Perhaps it is some sort of sauce thingy.
I must admit I'd thought (was hoping ;D ) you might find something on it :)
thanks for looking though.'
m
m
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new search and this one has come up. Pressed glass example, has a thumb press on the handle, but is still a lot smaller at c. 3 1/4" than the 5" diameter of my bowl,however the second link to an antiques site showing a silver one says in their blurb that they range from about 3" to 5" diameter (will try and find another reference on the sizing to support that)
http://www.andreburgos.com/collections/wine-related-antiques/products/tastevin-4
http://www.mfordcreech.com/19th_Century_French_First_Standard_Silver_Tastevin.htm
Just added a couple more pics of my bowl to show the glass. It's like looking through a bull's eye window pane.
Edited to add - the one in this link is 11.8cm diameter - description says 18th century, silver
http://www.anticstore.com/taste-vin-la-juridiction-orleans-1772-28490P Nope, misread the diameter, apologies.
In all honesty my bowl doesn't feel like something made to hold berries. There would be about enough height for one layer of strawberries, the sides flair out a bit so anything in it would just roll out at the slightest wrong touch or knock . If it does turn out to be a sweetmeat dish then it's not a good design imho :)
m
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... but it's honestly a bit too big to have been made to wear like this ;D (scroll down for photo of tastevin being worn)
http://www.meadowscollection.com/wineandvine2.htm
Edited to add -
scrolling further down the page they do indeed show a large Tastevin measuring 7.25" including handle.
http://www.meadowscollection.com/images/invtastevin4a.jpg
They comment that it was probably supposed to do double duty to hold nuts etc as well as taste wine. But it has cupoles and gadroons (that match with other silver smaller tastevin in design) and so they say was made to taste both red and white wine apparently, if they have both these designs on them.
m
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The one in the Meisenthal catalogue is described as "assiette à glace taill.126 et Etoile" - so ice cream plate size 126 mm with star bottom.
No idea what year the catalogue is - I presume 1930s. It is under "Articles Divers"- on the same page as the footed and unfooted gold fish bowls which are often mistaken for leech jars.
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Oh good find Ivo, thank you!
is it identical to mine? do I have an id?
Thanks for taking the time to look for me.
m
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oh I've just seen the pic now - that's a good match I would say ... and icecream wont roll out. Thanks ;D
m
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I see there are three (under the same listing) being sold currently on ebay, under Georgian glass - wine tasters c. 1820.
surprising how many seem suddenly to be on the market.
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hmmm. What size are they though. I've also found another, handblown with lenses cut into it around the outside. But not being sold as Georgian or a tastevin as far as I can remember - didn't keep a link to it.
I think mine is a good match for Ivo's catalogue pic don't you think?
The only thing that is slightly bemusing me is that the glass on mine does look quite old. Would they have been producing glass that looked like this in the 1930s?
m
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There is a set of three similar items up for sale on ebay at present.
Sorry just noticed post above.