Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: dfernbach on April 06, 2006, 06:47:29 PM
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So I have this 2.5 inch paperweight that looks to me like something less than a quality paperweight. The biggest thing creating this opinion is that one of the white canes has "dirt" on it. I even took an extra close-in photo of that cane to try and see if it's something more than dirt. (see the 4th picture)
I don't just annoy the Glass Message Board when I'm trying to id a weight, I also send my questions to a e-mail list I've put together. Today has been kind of wild, so I got the e-mail out hours before I got here, and I've already received 2 responses.
One response said "French or Bohemian, if the latter may be very late 19th or very early 20th century."
The other response is much more exciting for me: "Clichy, circa classic French period 1845-1855." He followed up with "Those millefiori canes with the stars in them are classic Clichy. Also the pastel colors are another clue."
I'd love to read opinions supporting this, but of course would appreciate different opinions. My goal is to be right!
http://i2.tinypic.com/t5rg2h.jpg
http://i2.tinypic.com/t5rgvb.jpg
http://i2.tinypic.com/t5rin4.jpg
http://i2.tinypic.com/t5rj3s.jpg
On a different subject, mazel tov to Simone on your 1000th posting!
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they look like clichy roses bundled with the canes but with out the green outer " leaves"
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they look like clichy roses bundled with the canes but with out the green outer " leaves"
I agree! :shock: But, but, but ... :? I'm just not 100% sure :roll:
Whether it is or not, it's a real beauty! :shock: :D
And yes, Mazel Tov, Simone! :D Movin' up the Top Ten posters, too! :shock: Not bad for a relative 'new girl' :wink: :lol:
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I read Ray's comment about the Clichy roses. Then I looked at the weight. Then I read Ray's comment about the Clichy roses. Then I looked at the weight.
I couldn't figure out where you saw Clichy roses. So I took a much closer in picture and looked at that. Aha! Now I see what you're talking about!
http://i2.tinypic.com/t634m0.jpg
It seems to be a little out of focus, but it might give you a better look to see if they are Clichy roses. From what I've seen of the roses in Hollister's book, I never realized that they might make the roses this small!
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LOL thanks Leni. :lol:
I've been looking and looking and at first glance the rose canes are similar to Clichy, but they're not Clichy and don't have centre canes. Take all the other canes in the weight and it's definitely not Clichy, but it's certainly Victorian.
The star canes are also classic St. Louis, Baccarat and Bohemian. Of them all, the Bohemians made rose canes, although they were different to the Clichy ones - so my guess is either Bohemian or one of the other French houses, but not Baccarat or St. Louis.
If I were you Don, I'd ask Larry Selman if it could be a Pantin or St. Mande.
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Thanks Simone, I'll shoot Larry an e-mail.
Funny thing though, when Larry looked at my original pictures of the weights and picked 25 that he found of interest, this wasn't one of them.
By the way, if/when you get my cd, please feel free to share any or all of the information and pictures with anyone.
One last question (for now anyway) - Pantin I've heard of - in fact I recall reading somewhere that there were only 7 verified Pantin weights. I'm guessing that was written 30 or forty years ago. But who/what is St. Mande? (you know I'm not well educated!)
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Hi Don,
Pantin's are very rare and very beautiful. So far I've only seen pictures of them, but would love to see one for real.
St. Mande are another antique French glass maker who also turned out some quality items.
Their canes are generally larger than Clichy millefiori, but are also very detailed and well made.
The Bohemians did make some beautiful roses and very similar to the Clichy ones. I don't know about anyone else, but I can always tell the two roses from each other.
You should take a look at the latest Selman auction. It's one I've been waiting for. ;)
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:idea: I have a little weight which Sibylle Jargstorf identified as St Mande. It has very complex canes, and the centres of several are teeny tiny little roses - constructed very much like the ones in Don's weight! :shock:
It was the size which was confusing me! :roll: I looked again and saw that Don said it was only 2.5" so the roses must be quite tiny.
However, there's something about those blue and white star canes :? The fact that the white centres show through at the edges of the points is ringing a bell with me, but I just can't put my finger on it! :shock: :?
Going away to read a few books now! :roll: :lol:
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Don, could those white blobs possibly be crouching rabbit sillouettes, in the centre of the red cane in the blue and white star groups? :shock:
St Mande are known to have done a white crouching rabbit sillouette in blue, but the shapes in this weight look more 'blobby' - perhaps I'm just seeing things! :shock: :roll:
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Somehow I think the answer to it is in the white star canes with the green centres as well as the roses.
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Somehow I think the answer to it is in the white star canes with the green centres as well as the roses.
Those are very strange, aren't they? :shock: :?
As for the 'rabbits', well, perhaps they do look more like tadpoles! :lol: :roll: :wink:
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OMIGOSH :shock: :shock:
I tried getting a better photo of the canes from the bottom of the weight, and I think that they are, or at least could be construed to be crouching rabbits. (Do rabbits actually crouch?) :D
Anyway, rather than try to show the better detail through tinypic, I'm e-mailing full size photos to you, Simone and Larry Selman. Maybe you and Simone have a better or at least faster way of getting good detailed pictures into the message board.
Should I be getting excited? :? :?
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Should I be getting excited? :? :?
I always get excited about mystery weights like this! Particularly ones with roses :shock: I love 'em! :D :wink:
Oooh! The thrill of the 'chase'! :lol:
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Hi Leni, it's the antique New England ones that have the running rabbit cane. (It would be so easy to say that with the r's sounding like w's). :lol:
Early Baccarat also made roses, but they were large and very similar to Clichy. Also some antique Italian weights had roses, but I'm yet to find the white star canes with the green in.
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Well that was fun!
Let's see, I started out with a Boho, it got promoted to Clichy, took a side trip to St. Mande and Pantin, and has now returned to its roots in Bohemia!
At one point we almost booked a side trip to Beijing with a stop at Boston.
:lol:
How did we miss Italy and the British Isles?
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Hi Don, :D
It's definitely Bohemian, like I thought in the first place, I found pictures of weights with those little rose canes, both in pink and white - and also the white star canes with green bits in.
We could have gone around the world in 80 days if it would have carried on! :shock:
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I am beginning to be as agitated by the blanket use of 'Bohemian' as I am by the use of 'Chinese' :lol: :roll: Now I'm going to want to locate just where in 'Bohemia' all those canes were made! :roll:
Can I ask where you found the pictures? And what is your opinion of the 'rabbit' / tadpoles now you've seen the larger base pictures? :shock: :?
I have been searching my Kules and my Jargstorf. Which books do you use?
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A couple of days ago I met Alan Kaplan at Leo Kaplan Ltd, and Jack Feingold at Gem Antiques - both NYC paperweight dealers with large collections and years of experience.
Neither was able to give a definitive answer on this weight or even put forth an educated guess. Neither denied the Bohemian theory, but neither seemed willing to accept it either????
I decided to put it out on e-bay with everything I knew and everything that had been guessed. If you're interested it's e-bay Item number: 7406491723.
I've had a number of inquiries from people, but none were willing to offer any information. After just a day and a half listing, there are LOTS of people signed up to watch this weight (almost 100 already!).
I suspect that everyone out there has his/her own theory and is unwilling to share it! :cry:
I know the current high bidder - he's a Parisian who has in the past only seemed interested in French weights, so I don't think he's bought in to the Bohemian theory!
Apology to Simone and Leni - I completely forgot to mention the tadpole theory. I think I'll leave that one alone.
Leni - When will we all be invited to your place for some wabbit stew?
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The paperweight was won by a gentleman from Pennsylvania (actually, he's an attorney, so my assumption that he's a gentleman is based on the fact that he paid me a fairly good amount of money).
Once I was paid and he had received the paperweight, I asked him for any comments / opinions he might be willing to provide on its origins.
As you all know by now, I tend to go on and on when writing, so I was somewhat taken aback by his terse (to say the least response):
I believe that it is St. Mande.
I don't know anything about the buyer's expertise, although Simone pointed out that he has some history of buying paperweights and they generally seem to be worthwhile pieces - but as he is a paying customer, I for one will accept his determination.
Gee, I wish he would have said something about cwouching wabbits or tadpoles or the like.