Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: MissPrints on November 25, 2012, 10:26:15 PM
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The main body color is a soft pale yellow with blue to the rims + the blue swirls above the base at the juncture of the body with the base ''roots''. The glass of the base is a return to the yellow colour.
Six (6) roots comprise the base.
http://www.kiowamoon.com/silver/thorn1.jpg
Condition: a break(?) ~ the pointed end of the topmost finishing wrap of the branch has the shape of a songbird's head in profile. The ''top'' of the head is soft to the touch. What would be considered the point of the ''beak'' is sharp and there's roughness to the top of the ''beak''. A semi-horizontal row of air(?) bubbles, as shown here:
http://www.kiowamoon.com/silver/thorn2.jpg
http://www.kiowamoon.com/silver/thorn3.jpg
Weight: 14 ounces
Diameter of base: 1 3/4(round portion)
Diameter, root tip to root tip: 4 1/4
Height: 5 3/4
Signature: none detected
Age: unknown
Maker: Unknown
Country of Manufacture: unknown
Shown with a Harrach vase with a similar root base from Collectible Bohemian Glass, 1880-1940 (Truitt, Robert & Deborah, 1995: B & D Glass, p. 63)
The vase resembles a rose bush or a berry vine~ perhaps that design was common(?) .
Note: based on a vintage (not factory) plain white label attached to its base, this vase was described as Thomas Webb. However, that label may have been attached by an appraiser( identity and time, unknown) long ago. I no longer think that Webb, necessarily, may have had any relationship to this vase.
Thank you~
MissPrints
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lovely victorian vaseline table ornament often known as ' triffids' - one of our estimated members has an impressive collection of these and will hopefully chime in.
To the best of my knowledge these are British, they do not turn up in France or Germany at all.
Use clear nail varnish to soften the broken off edges, it is an acceptable restauration because it is reversible.
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I agree English and Victorian. Webb is a likely candidate, though it is virtually impossible to find out who made most of these. A little damage is inevitable on these but what you're describing sounds like part of the manufacturing process.
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Best to keep to "thorn vase" as you did in your title — then everyone will know what you are discussing.
Most were made by John Walsh Walsh, but a few may have been made by others as I have never found a patent or design registration specifically for the thorn element of thorn vases. With the eclectic three-section foot, with each section split, opened out and passed over a stem, however rudimentary, and the three sections squashed together, they are always Walsh in my opinion and experience.
Walsh would have described the colour of yours as "canary opalescent", then standard terminology worldwide. Dating is difficult — late Victorian to early C20 is about as accurate as we can get at present. Certainly production had ceased by, and probably well before, the early 1920s.
Nice example.
Bernard C. 8)
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Hi MissPrints! I am the member with the large collection of these 'triffids' or, as they are more commonly known, thorn or 'rustic' vases. In fact, I have one almost identical - in as much as these hand-made pieces can be said to be 'identical' - to yours.
I have to agree with Ivo, Christine and Bernard that, while most are probably English and possibly Stourbridge, it is not possible to say for certain by whom they were made.
Looking at your pictures, I would say that the 'twig' which you describe as a 'bird's head' could either be a break or could just have been roughly snipped off while the glass was soft. I have examples where the ends of these 'branches' come to a smooth-ish rounded point, those where the end has obviously been broken off, and those where the end has been cut with the glass-makers scissors.
To me, yours looks like a snip with scissors rather than a break. Also, the one of mine which is most like yours is finished in just this way. (I will attach a photo of that one.)
Yours a very nice piece! :)
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This one isn't an "Audrey" though - Audreys look like they're going to eat you. They have bulbous, often cranberry semi-flower-like tops and they look like Audrey from "The Little Shop of Horrors" (just to get you up to date with some more glassie "slang"... although it only tends to be used by some of us here.... for short. It was before we knew the proper words!)
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Ivo~
I just purchased your book(new): notify your publisher that they owe you a HUGE royalty check. I look forward to the book's arrival here.
As you suggested, I added clear top coat nail polish to the area. Additionally, that a ''restauration''
( from zee French. Oui Oui!) is allowed, given its temporary nature, was a happy surprise.
Vaseline glass. I've seen the term elsewhere but lacking any experience or way to compare, with any confidence, this vase to another vase, I remained puzzled. Not any more.
Hello, once again, to Lustrous stone, our lady of the beautiful glass gallery.
Bernard C
Thank you for Mr. Walsh Walsh as a strong possibility as artist.
"canary opalescent"! Delightful= the colouration descriptor is far more elegant than my
''pale yellow with blue''. In the sunlight, the glass dances with life. I am particularly fond of the blue swirls toward the base.
LENI--
When first I read the word triffid I thought of Tolkein so I went to wikipedia. Why, there is an entire culture created around them: movies, comic books, and the BBC TV. The Wiki drawing of a triffid resembles a Venus flytrap on steroids and LSD.
You wrote: To me, yours looks like a snip with scissors rather than a break. Also, the one of mine which is most like yours is finished in just this way. (I will attach a photo of that one.)
Thank you including your photo—and for the possibility that the area of my vase may be where the maker ceased working(he had to stop somewhere). Incidentally, I find your vase even prettier than mine=more of the blue.
Chopin-Liszt
Hello, once again. I'll play C's Ops 66 just for you.
* * * *
In sum, I THINK I can describe my vase as
Triffid Thorn Vaseline Vase
Maker: unknown; possibly John Walsh Walsh
Country of Origin: Likely England; not Germany or France
Colour: canary opalescent with blue
Condition: bird's beak plateau [LENI] may be original to the piece
I have never before had the privilege to be in the presence of so much talent.
While I don't wish to appear obsequious, nonetheless-- I am genuinely grateful.
BEST!
Marney
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... I have to agree with Ivo, Christine and Bernard that, while most are probably English and possibly Stourbridge, it is not possible to say for certain by whom they were made. ...
Leni — I am very surprised by this comment, misquoting both me and Ivo. I expected better. Please never misquote or reinterpret what I have said on the GMB. You are welcome to disagree, request further evidence, ignore my contributions, or anything else, but, please, never misquote me.
Marney — Thank you for your name. John Walsh Walsh was the name of the glassworks, not an artist! I didn't say Walsh was a strong possibility — I said that Walsh made your thorn vase. Please do not misquote me. You are welcome to disagree or anything else, but please don't misquote me.
Bernard C. 8)
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Bernard I can't see where you said Marney's thorn vase was made by John Walsh Walsh? Or I can't see that her vase is as you described the Walsh Walsh ones.
You described as per your quote below a vase with 'the eclectic three-section foot, with each section split, opened out and passed over a stem, however rudimentary, and the three sections squashed together, they are always Walsh in my opinion and experience'.
I can't see Marney's has three sections? Can you explain to me please? thanks.
And I can't see where you said Marney's was definitely Walsh Walsh in your comments.
Thank you
m
Best to keep to "thorn vase" as you did in your title — then everyone will know what you are discussing.
Most were made by John Walsh Walsh, but a few may have been made by others as I have never found a patent or design registration specifically for the thorn element of thorn vases. With the eclectic three-section foot, with each section split, opened out and passed over a stem, however rudimentary, and the three sections squashed together, they are always Walsh in my opinion and experience.
Walsh would have described the colour of yours as "canary opalescent", then standard terminology worldwide. Dating is difficult — late Victorian to early C20 is about as accurate as we can get at present. Certainly production had ceased by, and probably well before, the early 1920s.
Nice example.
Bernard C. 8)
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m — in Marney's first picture the lowest section is root 12 o'clock through to root 6 o'clock, the next 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock, and the last 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock, although I may have the last two sections in the wrong order as the three sections have been squashed together pretty thoroughly. It hadn't occurred to me that this wasn't obvious. So, apologies, perhaps my words were a little strong, but it doesn't hurt to remind members that my views are reasonably well-considered and based on years of experience of handling, examining, and reading about glass, with a little experience of watching glassmakers at work.
Marney — with canary opalescent the opacity and the blue you see are all part of the opalescence, so adding "with blue" to canary opalescent is unnecessary.
Bernard C. 8)
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Leni — I am very surprised by this comment, misquoting both me and Ivo. I expected better. Please never misquote or reinterpret what I have said on the GMB. You are welcome to disagree, request further evidence, ignore my contributions, or anything else, but, please, never misquote me.
Bernard, I apologise if my wording led you to believe I was "misquoting" both you and Ivo. I suppose technically I was, in that what I should have said was, "I have to agree with Ivo, Christine and Bernard that, while most are probably English, and IMHO possibly Stourbridge, it is not possible to say for certain by whom they were made."
However, I have to say - again just IMHO - you are a grumpy old pedant!
Have a nice day! Goodbye.
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For the "Triffid" collectors ;D here's an extract from the J. Stolle Niemen 1926 catalogue (Poland).
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Bernard C~
No offence intended and none taken.
You wrote: John Walsh Walsh was the name of the glassworks, not an artist!
Ah. I did wonder wonder. Thank you.
You wrote; I didn't say Walsh was a strong possibility — I said that Walsh made your thorn vase. Please do not misquote me. You are welcome to disagree or anything else, but please don't misquote me.
A misquotation was strictly unintentional—actually, one more of misapprehension. Let me explain~
You wrote: >>Most were made by John Walsh Walsh, but a few may have been made by others as I have never found a patent or design registration specifically for the thorn element of thorn vases.
When I read the words ''most'' + ''a few may have been made by others'' then my ultraconservative tendency was not to definitively state it was a John Walsh Walsh factory product. That hesitancy is the little accountant in me. Now, I understand what you intended.
You wrote: >>With the eclectic three-section foot, with each section split, opened out and passed over a stem, however rudimentary, and the three sections squashed together, they are always Walsh in my opinion and experience.
When I read your detailed description I didn't believe that my base was a match, other than to qualify as rudimentary[ Rudimentary, here: basic execution; good but not great, etc.].
Also, your ''three-section foot'' was a design feature that I do not see. If there is something I am missing(I won't be surprised) please Fire! Away. I have broad shoulders--in every sense of the term.
I've attached new photos.
The areas between the root branches are smooth: no twists.
The root ends do not appear to square with your ''passed over a stem''. '' Individual roots only.
Based on that, I concluded that this vase may have been made
by your ''others''. Ergo, I wrote ''Likely made by''. <--Noted and Corrected.
The root ends seem to be smushed (not a technical term but handy) inward -- from the tips toward the base or pulled and tweaked(?) I see as Six (6) roots rather than three pairs. Together they form, in essence, a star or splayed platform/base. Yes? No?
I have tried to imagine how the base WAS created--the double vases were added atop the roots? I've stared at the vase until my eyes crossed but I cannot imagine the procedure.
Thank you for the colouration correction: a proper description would read "canary and blue opalescent".
BEST!
Marney
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The six feet is fairly standard on these things. Yours may be Walsh, but my four "British" thorn vases do not seem to match a known (IMHO) Walsh piece in shade of foot glass (the Walsh is paler than all despite being thicker) and only two match in terms of foot twist; one being way different. I would hesitate to ascribe them all to any one maker
Walsh footed posy
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1498
Most similar foot
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1130
Vaguely similar foot
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1126
Very different
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1035
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Thank you, Lustrousstone, for the photos of those lovely pieces.
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:-[ A HUGE thank-you to Glen for posting the image of the curly bottomed J. Stolle Niemen 1926 catalogue (Poland) image.
This is interesting and very useful - thank-you Glen! :-*
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Thank you, Sue. Thank you so much.
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Glen, I think I had something similar in shape a while ago but not in opalescent. Do you know what decor the Stolle Nieman vase comes in please? and thanks yes :) for posting it.
m
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Glen, I think I had something similar in shape a while ago but not in opalescent. Do you know what decor the Stolle Nieman vase comes in please? and thanks yes :) for posting it.
m
I wish I had more info to assist you with, but the extract that I posted is all I have at the moment. It intrigued me when I saw it in the catalogue and I wanted to share it in case it helped anyone. If I can find out any more I will share it right away.
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It's a really solid and interesting and relevant bit of information for anybody who is interested in this kind of glass, Glen.
Assumptions have always generally been English of some sort - to know for sure that they were made in Poland, and who by and when, is just fascinating - and is information we must keep in mind at all times. 8)
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There are Kralik ones too. That Stolle Niemen one has thorny feet, which doesn't seem to feature particularly on the almost certainly English ones.
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1174
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Thank you Glen :) I just wondered because I think mine was solid colour or cased somehow. I can't remember.
Christine that is one gorgeous vase. The colour combination is fabulous.
m
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Interesting thread! Here's some more Czech thorn vases:
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/31449-two-new-kralik-thorn-vases
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/47752-new-czech-thorn-vases
and French ones:
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/75140-1899-french-legras-multi-stick-and-thorn-a?in=441