Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: mitko07 on March 18, 2013, 06:26:26 AM
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Hello Everybody!
I need help identifying this very unusual pickles jar and hopefully date it.
While it looks fairly modern I believe it is from the 30s 40s or even earlier.
The glass color is more like an virgin olive oil rather than yellow or green and it is hand blown. It has finely polished pontil mark but it is unsigned.
I am sure that metal part is silver plated over white metal and the only marking is under the lid- stamped # 18.
Thanks in advance! Best! D.
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hello 'D' - Wish I could help positively, but just a thought or two.
You don't say where you are in the world, but if the figure 18 is preceeded by the hash symbol then this is very likely a States item. I'd have thought that chrome plating was a more likely process for the metalwork, bearing in mind this is a utility item - but I could be wrong entirely. Try a small quantity of proprietary cleaner product and rub gently with a tissue - if silver plated you should get a black result on the tissue.
I know nothing of States silver marks - do they not mark plate in any way? - and bearing in mind the vinegar content of pickles (ascetic acid?), might this not be a good thing for silver items?
What is the extent of base wear - should be a fair amount I'd have thought for a 30/40's item like this.
As for the U.K., the pickles that I've been aware of seeing have all been very traditional i.e. squat, bulbous bodies, always in clear, glass only and no metal parts - better quality pieces have cut decoration, with the cheaper sorts moulded, and always with large ground stopper lids. I understand that some early Victorian examples are known in pale colours. Certainly a shape such as this would not be out of place as a deco style in the period you mention.
sorry this is of no use for an id. :)
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Vinegar is acetic acid, Paul. :)
- I think ascetics has something more to do with the wearing of hair shirts... ;)
I'm out of my depth with condiment things - although I'd tend to associate WMF with quality table/domestic wares which involve glass with metal bits.
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Hello Paul and Sue !
Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts! Well I must have missed few things describing it... Yes, it is definitely 100% silver plate - there was a light tarnishing to the silver which I cleaned but there is some left between the letters.
I believe the base metal is alpacca metal ( German silver) used by WMF or another hard metal such as metal blanc which Cristoffle of France used for cutlery and kitchen vessels.
Sue, I think you are very close to what I was thinking - to my opinion it looks either German, French or even Czech but not American or Italian.
I Just didn't wanted to affect your opinion by saying it and was just hoping that someone have seen it somewhere- it is hard to forget it with these letters on the lid :)
It is just that it is written in English that keep me from attributing it to a German or French company.
What I think is that this jar could have been a limited order for a hotel or restaurant chain or even a cruise liner ship and then privatized by a guest.
Companies like WMF, Christofle etc. are known to have produced such items and sometimes not marked.
There is no symbol but just number 18 which I have seen on some German and French items such as both Christofle and WMF.
The wear on the bottom to my opinion matches the age I proposed but I could be wrong - I made couple photographs- take a look!
There are few other things that make me believe this jar is of superior quality..
first is the pontil mark- not too many producers will bother to make it that perfect but it typical for European glass makers. It it just perfectly polished- you can even see the lines from the wheel.
Another thing is how the metal ring is fitted to the glass! There is a about 2 millimeters/ or 1/16th cut from the outher side so that the metal part does not stick out but lines with the glass.
I have seen several of WMF glass liqueur jugs with metal lids and there are similar techniques used.
Of course this is just my opinion and be wrong.
It is in fact a great unusual piece and I think Paul right about the Art Deco style.
Also I believe there is plenty of salt and vinegar in the pickled cucumbers but they will both not corrode silver while easily do that to alpacca metal.
In fact just googled images of " WMF and Christofle in combination with green glass and there are few pictures that are similar to the nuance of this color but no pickles jar :(.
Ok I better stop here - it is just a pickles jar :)
Excuse my not so good English!
Best !D.
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The only reason I did mention WMF was the obvious quality - including the beautiful polished pontil mark. :)
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My question is what sort of pickles could you get in or out of such a narrow neck? I also wonder why it says pickles and not pickle. Perhaps it was for a modern cosmetics manufacturer. EPNS seems more likely than silver plate too - that tarnishes.
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I can't imagine why anybody would want to get pickles out of anything... :-X
Capers are tiny, you get tiny cauliflower florets, or baby gherkins, or strips of peppers.
There used to be a manufacturer called Pickle, which made a Vick-like substance. It had "Pickle's Snufflebabe"written on the label, which amused me for some reason.
I don't feel the wording on this piece looks "art deco" at all - I reckon it's more '60s-'70s.
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Hello Lustrousstone!
Well it could be used for some baby cucumbers or even cut to pieces ...I have to give it a try :)
It has the typical hooks on the side that are used to hang tongs / a very thin fork which you will see on almost every pickle jar plus the color of the glass resembles pickled cucumbers- to me there is no doubt about it but I admit I can be wrong.
What kind of cosmetics do you think it was used for?
Hello Sue!
Different people have different feelings about style I admit and there is no use of argue about it!
My personal feeling is that the lettering itself and the entire piece "speaks" Art Deco!
Not that I am specialist but I have seen hundreds of examples and may say that is one of my few favorites.
You can see similar fonts used in books, posters etc from that period.
Actually if you google images for " art deco font" or "art deco lettering" as you say you will find several very similar.
Of course a style can't identify or date a piece in most cases since there a lots of modern reproductions.
Thank you guys!Best!D.
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Don't ever worry about my opinions - or even take them seriously! ;D
I do tend to just "open my mouth" and shove my thoughts into the general mix of opinions.
I'm not very good at "deco" styles. :-[
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Sue is being too modest - the lady is usually good at a lot of things ;) ;)
Sorry for the spelling error - something I deplore - if you're unsure of a word then how long does it take to minimize the screen and cheque your spilling ;)
I thought alpacas came from the slopes of the Andes in southern Peru - and guess a good song title might be 'Be My Snufflebabe Tonight'
and now for sensible thoughts.......
I have a WMF fork that carries those letters over an upper case G and what looks like an ostrich running very fast - perhaps most metalwork from this German company are marked similarly, but not sure. In the same way that the U.K. marked flatware with an indication of, for example, "20 DWTS PER DOZ", indicating a recognized standard of silver that was used to coat 12 forks or whatever - Germany often used the figure 90 to indicate that 90 grams of silver had been used to coat 12 forks plus 12 knives - but cheaper products were produced and the 90 was reduced to 60, 40 and even 20 grams on occasions.
France had a similar situation, and as D has commented, Christofle used a similar basis for their flatware - on occasions dropping the quantity of silver down to as low as 12 G or 18 G.
So this might well be a French piece in view of the figure 18.
Can say that very many companies finished their goods with a quality pontil depression, so that won't indicate any specific maker or country.
I'm unsure how the the base metal might be assumed to be Alpacca (or alpaca) - and although called German Silver, doesn't in fact contain any - but can imagine it has the advantage over some plating bases in that when the silver coating wears off the piece maintains a whitish look rather than showing a slightly orange look of copper.
I'd agree with Christine - looking again at the shape of this piece - not a practicable shape for pickles at all, and having looked at a lot (since I like to collect those which are attractive) I've never seen one with this truncated shape. For obvious reasons, pickles need a very close fitting lid/stopper - and this is achieved, usually, by means of large ground glass stoppers - I don't know how well fitting this silver coated lid would be.
If English is not your mother tongue D, then congratulations, you're very good at it. May we ask where you are, by the way. :)
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:-[
We are probably being a bit too joke-y for somebody who does not have English as their first language - so;
We're sorry, D. if we've put you to the extra trouble of translating things you don't need to. :-[
On the other hand, your English is absolutely excellent - I am already planning to adopt your expression of "privatising" objects from eg. cruise liners. It's far better than the one I've heard before, which was "liberating" them.
Not that I approve of pinching things or folk who do it. I just like the expression you used to describe it. ;D
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Personally (although the shape is very different) I would agree its as labeled...for pickles. At least in the U.S. the hooks are for holding a untensil used to remove the pickle from the bottle. As for the shape I think pickle relish certainly fit as well as small gherkins. Since there are two hooks I am wondering if one held a spoon & one a fork. As for age I suspect its mid 20th century, but from where I have no idea. As for the shape I found cylindrical pickle jars from both the U.S. & GB. URL shows some from the 20s although the one shown is far more upscale to say the least.
http://www.sha.org/bottle/Typing/IGCo1920/page94.jpg
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Hello and sorry for my late response!
Thanks guys for your attention and information!
Sue, my English is OK and getting better - thanks for the compliments!
I live in US for several years now but I am Bulgarian national.
Paul, there are not many white metal alloys that are silver plated and I assume it is alpacca or very similar because it is hard metal.
Here is a picture of plated WMF alpacca mark- i/o is for normal thickness of the plate!
Still hope to find more info regarding the and it looks like it is not going to be easy. Probably I should google it more .
All the best! D.
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thanks D. I can see the WMF over the upper case G.............and that ostrich running 'hell for leather' ;D. Wish you luck with your searching. :)
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I do pick up the odd piece of EPNS or similar flatware, and found this knife yesterday. Appreciate we shouldn't post non-glass items here, but it was just in view of the connection with alpacca plating which we'd been discussing - this one has a steel blade inserted into the plated handle. I assume that Arthur Krupp was the same as the German Engineering giant Krupp - just wondered if anyone might put a date to my knife, please, and thanks for looking. :)
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Hello Paul!
Yes it is the giant Krupp and I believe it is made sometime between 1910 -1920.
The steel blade has a double man mark must have been made in Solingen.
I think that later flatware made by this company was made in Berndorf, Austria and you can find a lot of theese made during the WW2 period.
this link has an example:
http://www.usmbooks.com/berndorf.html
All the best!D.
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hello D - my thanks for taking the time to reply, and appreciate your informative reply with link. Good to have a little more detail on this piece. We had better leave this one quietly now, as this forum is supposed to be for glass only. Again, my thanks. :)