Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on March 26, 2013, 01:54:49 PM
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I was so happy to find this. I've been looking for a bottle to add to my opaline collection for a long time (one that was affordable). It's a Bohemian or German milchglas schnapsflasche, beautiful glass that glows bright orange at the smallest hint of a light source. The pictures shown below, in my reply post, are without artificial lighting in overcast daylight with no sun. I think it dates to mid 18th century from what I can see comparing the figure on it with others.
Enamelled all over with flowers and then with a lady on the front, there is some small loss to some of the enamel but otherwise it's perfect. Measures just about 10cm tall.
I think dating to around 1750 it is semi translucent glass made with the addition of bone ash as an opacifier. It is opaline glass basically. But once you get near the neck where the glass has been pulled into shape and it thins, you can see the opalescent effect between the body of the bottle and the neck. It is a bluey grey colour with orange just when looking at it on casual inspection. When you hold it to daylight even without sunshine or artificial lighting it immediately glows bright orange.
It is known as Milchglas - but perhaps this is the good example of 17th century ' opaline ' glass and the opalescent effect from the different rates of cooling between the thick and thin areas of glass.
I've added some comparison pictures of this and a mid 18th century opaline glass jug (French I think) to show the differences in the glass. One of the pictures is in normal daylight on white with no artificial or sunshine.
Now all I need to add is an 1830s piece of coloured or white French opaline and my collection will be complete ;D
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more pics
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oops, in my post I meant to say 'perhaps this is a good example of 18th century...' not 17th! and then the white jug should read 'mid 19th century...' not mid 18th!
m
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M how do you do it :o all the research , glass buying..... two kids now a puppy what the hell are you taking!!!!! and where can I get some? ;) ;D
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All you need now is something to drink from ;D
cheers,
Peter.
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I'm with jp on this,where do you go shopping?? ;D ;D
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Wow - well done... again.... and again... and again! ;D
You keep on finding really great pieces.
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Well done M ;D
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thank you so much for your nice comments :)
- it was bought online
It was just that having started the whole opaline debate, I felt that I had to try and get some examples of the different effects of 'semi-translucent' glass over a period of time so I could have a good look at them. And it was cheaper than the train-fare for me to go up to the V&A again to have another look :o
I'm not holding out much hope of finding an early 1800's French piece at a reasonable price though, so that might be a gap for a long time.
JP I don't have a full time job out of the house :) so I have time to read books, which I love (I'm not a TV watcher ). And I get bored very quickly, so I need my brain to be occupied all the time. I read a lot and have a good memory for things.
Although I'm finding the German in my new books quite hard going - google translate comes in useful only if you know they've put the sentence in the right order ;D
Peter that's a very sweet cup - lovely glass.
m
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Combined verbs in german must be a real pain for non-native speakers... ;D
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Just for reference, I found one of these at the V&A that is remarkably similar in decoration, especially the lady, but also the type of decoration over the bottle. They have it dated to c.1710-1730, so it's a bit earlier than I'd thought.
m
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You never stop, do you? ;D :-*
Lovely snippet of extra (potential) info. to be confirmed.
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;D
In an ideal world, I'd do a 6mth tour to the list of museums I'd like to visit and photograph collections. I love going to the V&A and actually seeing the glass close up. Photos can't replace what something actually looks like to the naked eye.
I'd forgotten I photographed this one though as I didn't have it last time I went up there so didn't take much notice then.
m
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There are some museums I'd like to spend 6 months in. ::)
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just a reminder that I did get agreement from the V & A year or so back that we may show pix of their glass on the GMB - similar to the arrangement that we have with TNA - and like the Kew pix it's a condition of the agreement that they're watermarked with a similar wording.
Not always easy to get the camera close enough, especially if the piece is small, and then there is the matter of the cabinet glass which might produce some reflection. But for larger items it should work o.k. - think I've only used it once on the Board and the result was quite good.
So if you have a pic or two m and can watermark them.................... :)
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Paul, I'd love to know how to watermark them! None of the programs I have will do it. And I really want to be able to do it with my other glass as well.
What do you use?
m
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try this link which was posted by Bernard some time back - if I can use it then it can't be too difficult.......... http://zippyhelp.com/imagetools/watermark/watermarker.htm
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my first attempt then :) and thanks Paul.
Label states - Central Europe about 1710-1730
m
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to enlarge the watermark text, you can break the wording and make two lines, as follows.............
type as many words as you want on the first line then (without touching the space bar) hit the less than key followed by lower case br, then hit the more than key, and continue immediately with the remainder of your text. Obviously it's somewhat trial and error to get the hang of the best fit, but should allow you to increase the font size by quite some margin. I think the idea was that it should be on each separate picture, but a good start. :)
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do you mean I should have put it on the label as well?
the middle picture is my own piece.
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sorry, a trifle asleep this end ;D
but yes, all separate images from the museum should carry a watermark.
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copyrighted pic of label :)
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;D I wouldn't have worried too much on this occasion - I was thinking more of future posts.
It occurs to me that tag names (is that what they're called) were probably not what the museum or Archives had in mind, and like some of the other older members of the GMB I use my own name - personally I can never understand why adults should see the need for anything other than their real name.
However, m is your chosen Board moniker, and I don't foresee a problem with using that in the watermark, alghough you might wish to indicate the year................no need to shange these though ;D
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Mod: Please note that posts relating to possible offers for sale of items, by new member Gary ("Old White Bottles"), have been moved to the Glass Market Place forum: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55209.0.html
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Yuletide greetings Kev! :-* -
a Moderator's work is never done, is it?
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Sorry about that! For the record I wasn't using this platform to sell anything parse, I was responding to a member's comment regarding a piece which was needed to complete their collection.
Cheerio
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Please don't worry. And thanks to Kev for moving the posts :)
It is lovely to see your collection so thank you for posting, but the marketplace is where all sales type comments go. It means more people will see your post as well if you are hoping to sell a few pieces.
m
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I'm just adding this for reference in case I forget -
I think there is a possibility my flask could also be Flühli-Glas - possibly.
There are remarkable similarities between the enamelling on some pieces I've found but finding a milchglas flask is quite difficult. The depiction of the lady has similarities though with one or two I've found in clear glass.
Here are two examples of opalglas or milchglas flasks (click on the 'museum' tab on the left and scroll down to second picture)
http://www.entlebucherhaus.ch/museum.html
also some photos here but all clear glass
http://www.hauszumdolder.ch/sonderausstellung_2000/
m
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http://www.ogallerie.com/auctions/2006-11/110802.jpg
http://www.bottlefinds.com/2013/09/an-enchanting-white-glass-german-enameled-post-flask-1760
http://www.realorrepro.com/article/Bohemian-Glass
http://www.chinese-porcelain-art.com/acatalog/Catalogue_European_Porcelain___Glass_Page_1_52.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/18thC-Rare-Stiegel-Type-Glass-Enamel-Painted-Bottle-/221309324672
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Thank you Ivo :)
It's quite difficult to find milchglas/beinglas/opalinglas versions as you can see most of the links are clear glass.
I'd found the realorrepro site before - makes very interesting reading ...
My current thoughts for mine are most likely German or Swiss rather than Bohemian now. I like to have a 'considered' guess just in case I turn out to be right in the end ;D
m
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Hi, I have no idea where these come from exactly, but I just want to show one "Milchglas" example I have, with a more simple floral decoration.
Mat
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Mat, sorry I must have missed your post originally. Your flask has many similarities with the Fluhli glas flasks doesn't it? The overall design, the way the flowers are painted and the decoration around the neck and sides of your flask is also very similar.
m
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Yes, you are right, it is very similar. There is only one thing that makes me think it might be from elsewhere. I have seen quite some of these bottles here in Greece, and I would think that if they were brought here in the 18th century it would be more likely they came from Bohemia than from Switzerland? Of course all of them can be brought here later in 20th century by collectors... Here is one more example of "Milchglas" ( height: 14 cm) I found lately. Unfortunately it is damaged, but it has an interesting shape...
Mat
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There is an almost identical bottle in the LaGranja book, and a similar decoration on another piece which says "viva Carlos III" - who died in 1788.
The bottles came in clear, milk glass and light blue.
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My first thoughts were as Ivo's.
There are two similar pieces in the museum collection, a vase with handles and a small bowl with handles. Both have similarities in decoration with the red buds on black stalks although the overall decoration is to my eye less 'exhuberant' than that on yours. The foot on yours looks a little heavier and less opalescent than the museum example and it comes a little higher I think. The bowl is dated. c.1800, the vase dated c. 1833.
There is also a Jarron with a similar shape, the foot a little less high on the body than yours and a little more opalescent though. Also dated c. 1800
The only caveat is that yours looks a little more opaque all over and the foot looks a little heavier. Perhaps yours might just be a bit later in date maybe? (or even earlier given Ivo's example of the Carlos cup) Difficult to tell without seeing the handles as they are often opalescent v the opaque body.
m
Edited minutes later - oops - I'd not realised Ivo was referring to the bottle/flask and not the vase . My comments about the vase stand though. And I've realised Ivo did not refer to the Carlos piece as a beaker - my memory came into play as I've seen two beakers with the Carlos writing.
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Ivo,did you mean my bottle at the start of the thread when you said an almost identical bottle?
If so, and it's the pic you sent me then yes, really really, the decoration on the reverse side of my bottle (the floral decoration) is indeed almost identical.
hmm, so, is my lady Spanish?
One caveat - my bottle clearly has a 'half post' applied neck whereas it's difficult to tell whether the one in the book does or not - might make a difference to age perhaps?
m
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The other bottles in the book were done in half post, so probably the white one as well.
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This piece is in the Hungarian museum collection of Museum of Applied Arts
http://collections.imm.hu/gyujtemeny/spirit-flask/2516?ds=eyJxIjoiZ2xhc3MifQ%3D%3D&i=307
It is 13cm tall, mine is 9.5cm.
'Spirit flask
Accession Nr.:
2813
Collection:
Ceramics and Glass Collection
Manufacturer:
Haban workshop
Date of production:
18th century
Place of production:
Hungary
Materials:
opaque frosted glass; pewter
Techniques:
painted in enamel
Dimensions:
height: 13 cm '
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Link to a photo of some more clear glass versions in the Muzeum Karkonoskiego w Jeleniej Górze
The descriptor underneath photo says they are 17th and 18th century:
'Piersiówki ze Śląska i Czech z XVII i XVIII w. ze zbiorów Muzeum Karkonoskiego w Jeleniej Górze; szkło bezbarwne formowane ręcznie i malowane emaliami opakowymi / Fot. Archiwum Slow Food Dolny Śląsk.'
http://dolnoslaskosc.pl/alkohol-w-kulturze-stolu-dawnego-wroclawia-wodka,817.html
http://dolnoslaskosc.pl/userfiles/Kulinaria/SobelWodka/2_Fot_Archiw_SFDS.JPG
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Yes, you are right, it is very similar. There is only one thing that makes me think it might be from elsewhere. I have seen quite some of these bottles here in Greece, and I would think that if they were brought here in the 18th century it would be more likely they came from Bohemia than from Switzerland? Of course all of them can be brought here later in 20th century by collectors... Here is one more example of "Milchglas" ( height: 14 cm) I found lately. Unfortunately it is damaged, but it has an interesting shape...
Mat
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52027.msg344854.html#msg344854
There is a vase of I would say almost identical shape (handmade variation notwithstanding) and very similar decoration in the book
European Glass, Peerage Books 1983, Text by Olga Drahatova, Photographs by Gabriel Urbanek, Drawings by Ivan Kafka
on page 155:
'110/ Vase and inkwell of milk glass painted with enamel, northern Bohemia, Bor region, 3rd quarter of 18th century.'
m