Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: marie anne on March 27, 2013, 08:25:34 PM
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My second post today but that's it for a while I promise! This glass is an oddity. It has a base with 7 slices on the stem attached to a top with 6 slices on the stem. The join looks like someone's melted the glass and fused the two together. I think the original glass parts are quite old, possibly Georgian. Does anyone know - is this the kind of glass repair people did, or did manufacturers bodge parts together? I've seen marriages of stoppers and bottles before, but not composite stemware!
Thanks for any help,
Marie.
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quote........."My second post today but that's it for a while I promise!".... Please just keep them coming Marie ;)
are you sure of the unequal number of slice cuts? Sliced decoration which extends from the stem up onto the bowl is called bridging cutting.
What, in particular, makes you think Georgian? I'd suggest your glass is either a large wine or small goblet.
I have a drawn stem wine glass where it appears that the stem has been twisted after the slicing cutting has been formed - will post a picture tomorrow - always thought it to be a bit of a mystery - but it does have equal number of cuts below and above the twist.
I would have thought the glass would have been binned if it had snapped at the factory - rather than attempting to re-join the parts. Re-heating might well cause disaster to the rest of the piece.
You've not given dimensions of the glass, or a description of the underside of the foot - is this of lead glass composition (does it ring well when flicked), and what is the extent of wear on the foot?
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Thank you for replying to both my posts and for the encouragement. It is much appreciated.
There are definitely different numbers of cuts. I recounted and it's 6 in the bowl/upper stem and 8 on the lower stem. I'm attaching a new photo of the join and also photos of the foot to show the wear on the foot and the polished pontil on the base. I didn't know the term 'bridging cutting' thank you for explaining that. The bowl on this glass is quite thick (I've put a photo of the two glasses together into the other post's thread). I think it rings quite well pinged. It is 10.5cm high, so a bit shorter than the other glass.
Joining bits of a glass does seem like a weird thing to do, but that's what it looks like. I look forward to seeing the photo of your glass with the twist in the stem. Looking more closely at this glass, the lower stem looks very slightly pitted on the surface.
The 'Georgian' suggestion was because my glasses are simpler than the Victorian stemware I've seen in books, but I mentioned in my other reply that this might just mean more cheaply made than book examples!
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congratulations on your pix, these are much sharper and have good background contrast - it's always difficult to see details clearly when people include their washing hanging in the garden, or a collection of kitchen utensils ;D
See what you mean about the join - can't be certain of what happened here...........if the guy had first cut the facets on the stem then broken it but wished to re-join the two pieces, he'd still have the same number of flats on each piece.
If he hadn't cut the facets before re-joining, then when he did so much of the join would have been obliterated by the cutting - so as you say, it's mystery.........let's hope someone else might have the answer :)
Ordinarily, facets on stems are cut at 90 degrees to the axis of the stem, so cutting can get very close to any join - can only think that your glass was a botch repair. :-\
Attached are three pix of my drawn stem wine.........this shows the unusual 'twist' to the stem, which doesn't appear to be a join, so must be decorative and whilst it would be assumed an easy job whilst the glass remained plastic and before cutting the stem facets - it appears the twist was made after the cutting, since the facets themselves can be seen to have twisted. the black marks are where I ran out of fingers whilst counting the number of flats.
Wineglasses, usually, are made in three parts.........bowl, stem and foot - that is except the drawn stem variety which are made in two parts only.........bowl/stem and foot. However, I think that my example might possibly be an exception to the rule, and looks as though it could be bowl/stem with twist - lower part of stem with the 'nut-shaped' knop - and finally the foot. I could be wrong, but it's certainly an unusual glass, albeit attractive with vine and leaf engraving, lead construction with stunning ring. Because of the unusual stem construction, I'm not entirely sure how to date the glass, but might take a gamble and say c.1820 ish - foot is certainly wider than the bowl.
Polished pontil depressions, on their own, are unreliable for dating - they've been a feature of quality glasses since c. 1770 and well on into the C20 - so we need to combine other features for dating.
Much Georgian glass is not simple - you'll see when you get a good book. Knops, bowls and stems are classified into groups, and although I could be wrong, this bowl shape is not from that period - I'm also doubtful of Georgian in view of your comment that the bowl is thick.
Even with the pontil depression and cutting my opinion is that this glass, like the other one is second half C19, albeit better quality.
On Georgian pieces, cutting proper is confined more to stems rather than bowls - it was the Victorians that were obsessed with cutting everywhere.
You might consider buying/investing in one or two Georgian glasses that will show features that will show clearly the difference between 1790 and 1890 - colour is not always easy to describe either.
You've made a start - and you can now go around flicking everything you see - tell people you're looking for seeds and striations and discuss foot to bowl proportions like an expert ;D
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would help if I added the pix. :-[
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Hi Paul,
Sorry for the slow response it's been a busy Easter. I love your twist stem glass, it's beautiful. The stem join on mine probably is a bodgy repair, whereas your twist stem is lovely.
Thank you for all the tips and for the book recommendations. I've just ordered two of the books you recommended from Amazon. Bickerton's 'Eighteenth Century English Drinking Glasses' was a little more expensive so I'll work up to that one.
I think one of the mistakes I made was looking at glasses described as 'Georgian' on eBay so I look forward to working my way through the books and looking at drinking glasses at an antiques fairs. I will have fun trying to find a few good examples to buy. There's so much to learn - I didn't know that cutting was mostly on stems until the Victorians! I'm looking forward to my books arriving and reading up on knop, bowl and stem classifications!
Thank you for taking the time to give me all those pointers!
Marie.
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would certainly agree with your comment re ebay :o ......... Amazing the quantity of drinking glasses described as Georgian that were almost certainly made after 1830 - and care needed to avoid costly mistakes, but the books should help you a lot. There'll be a test after you've digested the contents, so let us know when you're ready, and we'll start the questions ;) ;D
these things are great to collect, and you get the bonus of all that history interest that you pick up on the way. Best of luck. :)
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In my view these are bits from two dofferent broken glasses fused together and sold as a single "Georgian" glass. Basically it is fraud. The colours of the two halves are different for a start!
A couple of months ago I was in a shop in Warwick where there was a display case with some glasses in. I asked the shopkeeper if he would open the case for me to have a closer look. No problem. I came across a monster of a glass. The top half had a small cordial glass type bowl with a plain stem, the bottom half a large conical foot with an air twist stem. The two parts had been fused together to form this ugly hybrid about 4" high a black line where this had been done. I called my wife over to have a look and the shopkeeper knew exactly which of the glasses I meant. The glass was described as a mixed stem glass from 1790 (some time after the air stem period). He swore blind it was genuine. In the shop there were some other very nice glasses but after this experience I was not interested in buying from him.
And the price of this hideous creation? £395!!!!!!!!
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Ebay....mmmmm!
Some really good sellers - about four real regular top dealers
Some occasional dabblers with a one of genuine glass
Some dealers who've picked up the odd glass in, say, a house clearance and don't really know much
Some fraudsters with their end of the pier rubbish.
There have been some real howlers recently - a stirrup glass, claimed to be 200+ yearsold that is unlikely to be 20 years old. Currently there is a molded, acid etched advertising glass claiming to be from 1810 - acid etching didn't really start till after 1850!
You can pick up some good deals on Ebay but also get really stung as I did when I started collecting Georgian glass. After initiating the dispute procedure I got my money back but it was a real learning experience.
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Hi ,
Just noticed this thread and would say that both glasses have had a hot weld repair , I have seen a few of these over the years and they have fooled many folks into thinking they have something different .
cheers ,
Peter
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HI ,
Hee hee , stirrup cups on eBay , I have lost count of the number of times I have informed sellers that there 200 year old stirrup cup is actually a candle holder ,sold by Habitat in a metal stand ,then they insist it cant be as granny has had it forever lol .
cheers ,
Peter.
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well, someone loved my glass - quote................"I love your twist stem glass, it's beautiful." :P
thanks folks for the information. Mine came from a boot sale some few years back, from memory, and I don't recall having seen another subsequently, so perhaps they're rare. Not always easy to see the point of someone hotworking a separate stem and bowl for a glass that has very little commercial value, although I can see the reasoning if the piece has some half decent value.
Can't detect any colour difference in the flesh - admittedly I have shoved some black ink on the stem where I was counting the facets.
For what I paid - probably a quid or two - it's an interesting glass, and good to have an example of this fraudulent hot-worked skullduggery.
I'd agree re the classification of ebay sellers - my objection to that method is the ease and lack of 'the chase' - how much more fun to go out and hunt through boxes at an antiques fair or up-market boot sale, and then find a gem, for a song. Money just makes life too easy. ;) ;)
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Hi ,
Here's one I knitted earlier ;D I bought this very many years ago as an example so that others could see that a hot weld was possible., this one has a repro foot attached and the twisting is clearly visible.
cheers
Peter
oops forgot to say that I don't think all hot welded jobs are done with the intention to deceive ,as you can see with mine this wont fool anyone I think the problem comes when they get into the hands of sellers who have less knowledge than they really should have to be selling antique glass.
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Wearing my moderator hat: Please note that concern has been raised about some of the general comments on eBay sellers (and others). Within board guidelines, it is stated that "item is not as described" is the way to handle such observations rather than claiming (without proper evidence) that a seller is or may be a fraudster.
Taking my moderator hat off, I can say that (possible) "welded marriages" are also known (or believed) for other than stemmed glasses. I once bought a good English paperweight with an attached "taper stick" - at least, the auction house description was "... 19th century Whitefriars paperweight with applied 18th century taper stick ...". The item is actually a 20th century piece very likely by Walsh Walsh. ( * ) I do not think for one moment that the auctioneers were attempting deceit - just severely misinformed.
( * ) Edited later to remove incorrect reference reference to Hill Ousten catalogue. Sorry about my mistake.
I also have an interesting (to me) vase on paperweight of Scottish 20 century origin but for which a foot has been added very recently simply as a repair, for stability, after an obvious and severe amount of damage to the lower part of the paperweight portion. Such an item is rare in Scottish work and well worth the repair. Fortunately, even disregrading the "wobbly" look of the whole thing, a quick check with uv light reveals an obvious difference in the glass of the foot and the other parts.
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Hi ,
Frankenstein's sister !!!! ????.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121184494961?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
cheers,
Peter.
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Poor English and dreadfully garbled description. Is it April 1st?