Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: charliepedro on April 13, 2013, 01:50:41 PM
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Hi guys,
Can anyone suggest the probable designer/producer of this vase please? It measures 26cm tall x 18.5cm wide (at broadest point) - it weighs 2.25kg. It looks to have been very skilfully made and there's a lot of base wear present.
Cheers, Charlene
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Reminds me of Craig's Boston and Sandwich icicle vase - I honestly don't know anything about them at all though, so I've no idea whether it is by them.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40095.msg221843.html#msg221843
m
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Hi M,
Sorry for the slow response - thanks very much for referring me to Craig's icicle Vase, it certainly has a lot in common with my vase although the base of mine is polished with a ground out pontil rather than having a mould-blown base. That being the case is it less likely to be a B&S vase? Thanks very much again for taking the time to reply and adding the link. Can I ask for the title of this thread to be changed to draw more opinions?
All the best, Charlene :)
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http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5833727
this one was sold as Boston and Sandwich and has alternate long and short icicles like yours.
No picture of the base.
I have no idea about B & S work but I'm curious now as the one I've just linked to would make me think Bohemian (Harrach) or French ...maybe?
Perhaps B & S and Harrach made similar pieces.? I've found a few more searching BOston and Sandwich icicle and they also have the alternate long and short icicles like yours.
m
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Hi M,
Yes, that is getting very very similar - this image confirms it for me though;
http://pinterest.com/katthare/boston-and-sandwich-glass/
About half way down the page on the right, you may have seen it... it has the same applied rim. I'd be happy to go with B&S until proven otherwise. Thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction. Can I request for a mod to change the location of this thread at all?
Cheers, C
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Why don't you ask the Boston & Sandwich Museum if your piece or any other icicle design piece can be attributed to B & S. The contact info is below. The reason I am a bit skeptical is B & S glass with the proper solid attribution brings big $$, but two auctions I've looked through that had these icicle vases attributed to B & S...well the sales results are not exactly what one would expect here in the U.S.
The large blue vase only brought $175 which is about 1/3 or even 1/2 on a bad day of what one expect & another auction for a green vase did not even fare that well. Hopefully you will receive a positive attribution & someone simply stole a piece on a large auction site. I might ask, but its not my piece.
Boston & Sandwich Museum contacts:
Director : Katharine H. Campbell
katie DOT campbell AT sandwichglassmuseum DOT org
Curator : Dorothy Schofield
dorothy DOT schofield AT sandwichglassmuseum DOT org
[Mod: email addresses made spam-harvester-proof; change the obvious to use]
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If you do contact B & S and get a reply could you let us know what they say please?
Many thanks
m
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Ohio, thanks very much for your reply + B&S Museum contact details, I'll send them an attribution request in a moment and post a reply on here as soon as I get one. I don't think the vase will be worth anything unfortunately though - I neglected to mention before that there's a sizeable crack running down one side of it. This does hide very well amongst the decor though. I bought it purely out of intrigue. It was £10 at a car boot sale which I though was a pretty reasonable price :)
Thanks again, I'll be back!
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Very reasonable for a gorgeous vase. I'm really interested to know what B&S say. Is it very heavy for size?
A drop of superglue on either end of the crack may help to stop it going further. If you dont' mind about it having glue on it.
m
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Hi guys,
Thanks M for your advice regarding the crack - I think I'll try that to stop it travelling further, it would be a great shame for it to end up in more than one piece after all this time.
Well, I sent a perfectly friendly and polite attribution request to Dorothy & Katharine at The Sandwich Glass Museum and received just one rather curious reply saying, and I quote: ''i don't THINK so.. would you respond? Thank you.''
No idea where to go now....
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Are your quotation marks in the right place? Did they really say that? Did they actually ask '....Would you respond?'
Ok, these two were also sold as Boston and Sandwich
http://www.treadwaygallery.com/lotInfo.php?i=6425#.UYEgmLWG1u4
and to me whilst yours does have the alternate icicles, there is something different about the rim on yours and also the one I linked to with all the enamel decoration on it with feet, to these.
I have no idea if all these vases really are Boston and Sandwich (e.g. I suspect a lot of overshot jugs some with peloton in them were listed as American Glass but are actually Bohemian possibly Kralik), but I do wonder if yours and the one with the feet and enamel are maybe French or Bohemian. Perhaps it was a trend at the time? or perhaps a Bohemian Maker copied the B&S ones or vice versa? I don't know, as I know precisely nothing about American glass.
m
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OK I'll tell you why I posted the contact info...there is a high end art glass dealer in his 60s from the Boston area & he belongs to the B&S group. In the Winter of 2011 he was a our monthly Scotts show (he sets up every month) & another dealer brought him a vase to attribute as that dealer was told it was B&S as we were talking. The Boston dealer immediately said that none of these icicle vases, bowls, pitchers were B&S & it was an old wives tale. His opinion was they were well executed Bohemian, but that he had no idea which Bohemian manufacturer. I just wondered what the museum thought.
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Thanks Ken :) mmm food for thought.
I have little to no idea in all honesty so this is just gut feel ... I've had a look through the few Harrach pages in my few books and couldn't see similar, but instinctively that is where I would search first. There are quite a few of them and the optic ribbed shapes remind me of some other Harrach pieces, as does that enamel one with the feet. I think if they were French they might be marked in some way and the bases don't make me think French really - I've searched a good number of trailed vases along the way but only come up against these when I was searching for a vase with lizards on - I remember wondering why some were listed as B & S and then I found a couple listed as Webb's but they all looked remarkably similar. I came down to thinking they were possibly Harrach.
m
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The biggest difference I notice between my example and this vase is the size of the frit applied to the icicles. B&S frit is generally larger and more granular looking. At least that is my experience. I know Harrach also did examples of Icicles, but their icicles are more organic and less refined than this example. At least that is my experience.
I would likely lean towards Bohemian, but as to who I have no idea.
Images of my vase attached to compare the frit easily.
Craig
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I have also sent an inquiry to the museum with an explanation of the question regarding the attribution being a myth. I laso sent an image of my vase with the email.
I will post the response when I receive it..... Quite an interesting discussion....
Craig
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Curious to see what transpires from this now - I'm wondering whether Kralik might be a contender for some of them?
Charlene, I wasn't genuinely questioning your post, I was just quite taken aback at the response, which as you say was odd. It has just occurred to me though, that perhaps that email wasn't meant to go to you, perhaps it was one of the parties you wrote to attempting to send it to the other party to ask if they would do the response to you and inadvertently got sent to you instead - which would explain why it was a little strange.
m
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So I got an email this morning from Dorothy G. Hogan-Schofield, the Curator of the Boston & Sandwich Museum. It reads as follows:
"Thank you for your inquiry about icicle glass. We have no evidence to support that this type of glassware was manufactured by the Boston & Sandwich Glass Company (1825-1888)"
So all of these attributions are completely inaccurate. The world of glass will never cease to amaze me.
Craig
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Craig...well I guess the old guy from Boston was correct. I am never suprised anymore after 39 years in glass & at age 67 that attributions made years ago turn out to be bogus & just old stories passed on. Since I've been around long enough I've seen more than my share of this & even though you are a much younger man I'll bet during your research of Bohemian/Czech glass that you have personally uncovered more than a few of these passed on tales. Ken
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Uncovered a few, yes..... Stourbridge Cottage glass as described by John Franks appears it may be one.
A much younger man..... NO..... ;D
Craig
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Sorry for the lack of reply until now folks - Craig, I've just received the very same reply from Dorothy G. Hogan-Schofield - amazing!
M, Yes of course, the message back from Katharine must have been intended for Dorothy :) That clears that up - I was a tad bewildered.
Good to disprove a long-standing myth. Ken, your man knows his onions. So Bohemian, namely Kralik and Harrach could be considered strong contenders now then - I wonder if we'll get a solid attribution for these vases at some stage... I'll get back to you all if I come across any useful info.
Thanks so much for your input, Charlene
Clearer pics of my vase attached for posterity ;)
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Very interesting :)
Charlene would you say the pontil mark on yours is quite large?
I think there are differences between yours and Craig's that make me wonder if they came from two different makers maybe?
It might be good to separate examples of those with all one length icicles, and those with alternate short and long icicles and see if there are any pointers to a manufacturer amongst the examples groups.
This shape looks like it might be the same maker as Craig's vase maybe
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6417916
m
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This listing says the jug is id'd as Thomas Hawkes? I have no idea if Hawkes made such things? To me the jug looks Bohemian.
http://bid.igavelauctions.com/Bidding.taf?_function=detail&Auction_uid1=1603415#Image6
description says:
'an amber pitcher with applied icicles and enameled with flowers identified on the paper labels as 'fig 233, page 129' made by Thomas G. Hawkes, one founder of Steuben glass works and bearing the Hawkes signature, Bourne catalog Oct. 8, 1985'
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and ref the above jug or pitcher
this seems to explain what the Bourne catalogue was - apparently an important auction of a massive collection of early American Glass -
http://articles.philly.com/1987-02-01/living/26178009_1_glass-house-catalogues-sale
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This one has a similar base to yours Charlene and the pulled down rim looks similar as well although the icicles are all the same length
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victorian-ICICLE-GLASS-BOSTON-SANDWICH-AMBER-GOLD-CLEAR-VASE-ENAMEL-PINK-BERRIES-/140910349768?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cee94dc8&ssPageName=RSS:B:SHOP:US:101
m
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That attribution as "The" Thomas Hawkes pertaining to that vase is absolute garbage to put it politely. At age 17 (1863) he was in the cutting shop of Hoare & Dailey in Brooklyn, then he moved to Corning where he founded several operations including Steuben & no operation & I mean no operation whether Hawkes or not in the Corning area made anything like that. Evidently the dolts who ran that auction never read his life story in The Complete Cut & Engraved Glass of Corning by Farrar & Spillman which is the bible for Corning glass nor did they have any knowledge of any of the Corning operations & what they manufactured.
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I think the examples are from different houses also.
I also agree that the Hawkes description on that example was completely in error....
Craig
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Thanks :) I have to say the flattened oval shape of that jug (seen from the top view) reminds me of the flattened oval shape of my large jug from Harrach.
m
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I have no idea if this linked vase is related to these on this thread but thought I'd post this information for future reference just in case it was useful:
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/293387-vase-eiszapfen-icicles--loetz-earl?in=441-activity
m
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FWIW, although I believe the line art shows a similar decor by Loetz, I do not believe the line art matches the piece of glass. The proportions of the actual glass are a far cry from the proportions shown in the line art. So although I am confident that the line art shows a similar decor by Loetz, I am reasonably sure the two pieces are different. I am not sure that a solid match has been made to a Loetz example at this point.