Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on April 19, 2013, 06:32:31 PM
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This has wear marks on the base in four high spots and a polished pontil mark over a snapped off pontil scar that is still visible.
It's pretty but has a weird bird engraved on it in that both the wings are on the same side as the bird. She's well done in that she has feathers and a little eye and detail but the wings are odd to me.
The birds are on opposing sides on the shoulders with branches and leaves, then on the other side it's leaves. There are flowers engraved all round the base. Again the engraving looks quite naive to me.
Any thoughts of age or country at all much appreciated.
many thanks
m
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these are better pictures of the engraving and I forgot to say it has a very indented or kick up base. Difficult to show because of the engraving round the bottom of the flask so I had to take the pic at an angle.
The engraving is all matt. Is it copper wheel engraving maybe?
m
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Hi ,
Looks early 19th c or could be the end of the 18th c , 1/2 post method suggest continental Europe , Scandinavia is a possibility along with Germany,yes it is wheel engraved but crudely.
cheers ,
Peter.
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:o excellent - thank you :) I'll do some more looking. That's 100 yrs older than I even thought it might be.
m
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Hi,
It looks very much like mine, without the pontil mark though...
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/6/6/3/4/9/webimg/663118520_o.jpg
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/6/6/3/4/9/webimg/663118541_o.jpg
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/6/6/3/4/9/webimg/663118646_o.jpg
Mine is by Alfred Taube. eBay #380621276615 if you want to see more pics.
Rick
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Hi ,
the basic shape is similar,but as you said,no pontil mark,and I see no half post construction method,these Items have been made in most European countries in many guises since the 17th century and continue to be made today .
Just try this google image search, https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kluk+kluk+decanter&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=CfZ3UbT8BNGV0QXLqYCIDQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1360&bih=653
cheers ,
Peter.
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there is a large collection here to view, ranging from 1853
http://www.glashistoriskselskab.dk/index.php/Glashistorisk-Museum/Karafler-og-Klukflasker/Klukflasker/Klukflaske-1920-2063#joomimg
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And here is 1 from the Nostetangen Glasshouse, Norway, in there 1763 pattern book .
http://arkivverket.no/URN:db_read/db/32611/24/
cheers ,
Peter.
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amazing! thank you for sharing - it's incredible to see all the coloured plates in the book as well.
m
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Have I any chance of working out where and when on this one?
I've been reading up on Nostetangen in my books and the very scarce information I have on Scandinavian production from that period.
From the Nostetangen website it says
'German potash glass was used until about 1756, when the English lead glass appeared.'
and
'Glass production was ceased in 1777 and moved to Hurdals verk.'
I think I read in my books that Hurdals verk used lead glass?
So if my flask is not lead glass then might it mean that perhaps it's not Norwegian?
Also, are there any clues in the engraved subject matter? It doesn't strike me as Bohemian or German, not that I would really have a clue to be honest.
it's a minefield out there ;D especially when you have no clue about this type of glass at all.
m
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could mine be from Gjøvik maybe ?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/banden/5650625635/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/banden/6074453752/in/photostream/
m
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actually just a question - would Gjøvik be using lead glass?
if so, if mine isn't then would I be right in thinking mine is earlier than this - I think I read that Gjøvik was around from early 19th? (will check dates again now)
Sorry, it's taken a bit of thinking to get back round to something Peter mentioned in the first place -
I'm wondering if mine isn't lead glass then would I be right in thinking that it wouldn't be Hurdals verk or Gjøvik and therefore might be earlier i.e 18th century and could Nostetangen?
On the other hand I came across this piece written about the 'exquisite' engraving on Nostetangen glass and mine perhaps doesn't quite fit with the engraved pieces I've found online... in terms of 'exquisiteness' of the engraving ?
http://www.gonorway.no/go/noestetangen/history.html
However, this is a picture of an engraved piece close up - mine doesn't look that dissimilar in terms of execution especially looking at the bird ...does it?
http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/danziger-kelchen-nostetangen-wine-glass,-cup-engr-383-c-4165c79419
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this one is also listed by Bukowski's as Nostetangen - the engraving on mine does not look much different in execution to this I think
http://www.bukowskis.com/auctions/565/643-vinglas-norge-nostetangen-1700-tal
https://d2mpxrrcad19ou.cloudfront.net/item_images/271257/7200424_fullsize.jpg
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btw the way for anyone searching in the future the Norwegian term for these appears to be Klunkeflaske :)
new clearer pics attached
m
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I've happened upon this one which has 1831 engraved on it. It also has the bird with the wings as far as I can see (pics are not good). The base pontil mark area is indented to the same degree mine is.
m
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-WILLIAM-IV-ETCHED-GLASS-PINCHED-GLUG-GLUG-DECANTER-Ca-1831-/281177642223?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item41777e54ef
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The above should have said
The base pontil mark area is not indented to the same degree mine is.
And that one looks more square on the shoulders than mine as though it was blown in a squarer mold or something. Not sure how they are blown to be honest. So perhaps mine might be a little earlier, but I think nevertheless around that time frame of 1831.
Having had a good trawl around I think the naive style wheel engraved decoration is right for the period of late 1700-first third 1800's?
I found some glass flasks from Cedersbergs glasbruk which operated around the same time in Sweden (1781-1838 I think?) and the decoration is kind of similar in naivety although not in the actual depiction. I think mine is hops and leaves with the birds.
I have also found a Cedersbergs piece that has birds on it but not been able to find any Bohemian/German pieces with birds on in a similar vein. So I'm leaning towards it being Scandinavian rather than German as a hunch.
http://www.auction2000.se/auk/w.Object?inSiteLang=&inC=AS&inA=20130424_1354&inO=308
http://www.xn--vadrdenvrd-s5af.se/s/1120951/flaska-glas-markt-1772/
these pieces apparently come from Cedersbergs glasbruk and there is one glass with a flower on that looks similar to the flower on my flask. Also these are dated around the same period I think?
http://precisensan.com/antikforum/showthread.php?35555-Glasb%E4gare-anno-1831/page2
I'm not entirely sure where this little flask comes from but I think in translation it is possibly Cedersberg glass?
http://precisensan.com/antikforum/showthread.php?18984-Cedersberg
Most of the flasks I've seen that are these kluk kluk bottles or klunkeflaske seem to originate in Norway and Denmark rather than Sweden, although I understand from what I've read, that they were made in other countries as well? I've not been able to find any that originated in Germany or Bohemia so far. The German flasks seem to be Kuttrolf flasks which are a different shape.
I did find this though that I think I understand says they were also blown at Henrikstorps 1700's (scroll down for the shape)
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-37570/glas.htm
and this one
http://digitaltmuseum.se/things/flaska/S-UM/UM40904
which from translation seems to come from
'According Museum Gustavianums directory is the bottle from Lunddal in Skoklosters parish , Uppland.' I don't think that means it was blown there but that was where it was found or given from if I understand correctly.
The only other thing I can note is that the glass on my flask looks good and clear and the pontil mark is polished over the snapped of pontil mark - I think it's also the same on the one I linked to dated 1831.
I don't think it is late enough in the 19th for it to be Holmegaard.
I thought Gjøvik glassverk (1809-1843) Norway, which would match the time frame, the naively etched work and the shape, however I've not yet been able to find a Gjovik piece with the same or similar decoration.
Any leads would be appreciated :)
Many thanks
m
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mm, just to correct what I wrote above
I came across this discussion which appear to say that Kluckeflasken, klunkeflaske, kluk kluk decanters, were made in every factory in Sweden - if I have translated that correctly into English
post 29
English Translation- 'Another example is kluckaflaskan I mentioned. It an object that almost every glass factory manufactured in Sweden.'
http://precisensan.com/antikforum/showthread.php?18984-Cedersberg/page3
The pic in post 13 shows a glass left hand side,front, with a similar flower engraving to that on the bottom around my flask
http://precisensan.com/antikforum/showthread.php?18984-Cedersberg/page2
http://precisensan.com/antikforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47884&stc=1&d=1253617411
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I can appreciate the difference in the engraving, but any thoughts on whether mine might have originated in Holland?
Is this identification of the linked one correct?
http://www.janwesterhoven.nl/komt--u--binnen/het-proeflokaal/proeflokaal/zeer-zeldzame-karaf#blV5GtQgsS1uYDX84RZOVw
I'm thinking mine is perhaps not Norwegian based on the shape in that the pinches go very near the bottom leaving not a lot of glass 'flask' space and that doesn't seem to be the norm from what I can find out, with Norwegian Klunkeflaske.
Bohemian pokal with birds on - the feet seem similar to the way mine are done.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5372980
Thanks as always for any help :)
m
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Hi,
" I can appreciate the difference in the engraving, but any thoughts on whether mine might have originated in Holland? "
the decanter you link too with description of being Dutch c 1800 is in my opinion probably quite off the mark , Hulstkamp I believe were Gin producers from the mid 19th century till the early 20th in Rotterdam I am sure others will know more accurately there dates , and this decanter appears to have been made for them , were though is any ones guess, I would also say that it is my opinion that the engraving is not typically Dutch , the scenes may be but not the style or quality of the engraving.
Cheers ,
Peter.
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thanks Peter.
I could only find ceramic pieces for them and much later than 1831 from what I could see.
It's a wild goose chase so far as I can see for mine. Finding one dated 1831 is good but is it possible that was put on after it was made? since it seems to have initials on the other side of that flask? or maybe done for the owner?
I don't think it's Norwegian. I can't find any Scandinavian pieces with the leaves and hops or similar type engraving in any shape even though the engraving naivety fits with the early 19th century feel of some of the Swedish glassworks. The design of the engraving reminds me of Bohemian roemers from 18 century and I can only find pieces from that period with birds on.
m
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Hi ,
The date and initials look to be later added to me probably by the owner and with a diamond ring ,my thoughts would be Bohemian for this 1 .
Cheers ,
Peter.
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thanks Peter - I've just added another and I will keep searching on this one.
m