Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Otis Orlando on May 01, 2013, 11:31:01 PM
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Can anyone help me confirm that it is chinese and give any information as to the age and maker. Having carried out extensive research, which included looking at the chinese paperweights, I was unable to find one with this sort of design. :)
Overall dia. 4.9cm, Height 4.8cm and Flat dull finished base 2.7cm dia. approx.
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Hi there,
I believe that it is modern Chinese but cannot say more than that.
SophieB
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Cheers! SophieB, Chinese it is, unless stated otherwise. ;)
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Hi Otis. Chinese it is! Together with a fellow collector in France, I am currently working on an article on Chinese weights for the 2014 PCA Bulletin.
Alan
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That's great news! Alan, thank you for letting us know. I have acquired a lot of paperweights over the years and a number of them I believe and not confirmed, to be Chinese, but I don't have any further information or leads to go on and that could be the reason for the replies being short. I really don't think there is any real recognition. To say Chinese and nothing else, I find somewhat distasteful, that's only my feeling on the matter. Similar styles are made in different countries, but not one is the same and as far as I am concerned, a lot of time effort and skill has gone into making these beautiful paperweights. I was reluctant to post another so soon, but since your info. I think it would be a good idea to post it. If you need to use any of my paperweights, that have been confirmed as Chinese in your article, please feel free to do so. :)
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To say Chinese and nothing else, I find somewhat distasteful, that's only my feeling on the matter.
Distasteful to whom? The main production of Chinese weights was, and still is, a simple matter of sales by mass for the export market and no particular company, let alone a designer or maker was credited.
Similar styles are made in different countries, but not one is the same and as far as I am concerned, a lot of time effort and skill has gone into making these beautiful paperweights.
That is a fair comment, but even so, the Chinese paperweight production has not yet moved away from the mass markets. Even the latest items, with their much neater designs and finishing, and with fancy marketing descriptions, are still mass produced for the gift trade and sold very cheaply.
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'To say Chinese and nothing else, I find somewhat distasteful, that's only my feeling on the matter'
What do you find distasteful about it? I don't understand.
Have you done any research on Chinese glass production?
Perhaps more recent production of Chinese glass, sold to wholesale market for pennies and sold in gargantuan quantities, doesn't hold interest currently for a major piece of research trying to identify the hidden makers, but it may do in the future?
If this is your area of interest, it might make a great piece of research for you. And I'm sure many would be interested to see it on the board as it is all knowledge to add to the pot.
The best guess on identifying some/many of these pieces made in Murano, made in England, made in China, made in France, made in Bohemia, Germany etc, might be the guess of Country of production only so far. I'd say that's one step better than nothing.
I currently have two probably antique paperweights, very beautifully made, probably not mass produced, both of which currently stand at not even having a country identified, but only that they are 'probably made in .....'. And the possible country of origin of one of those has changed just in the last few weeks.
At least you have a country of origin :)
I also have a good number of vases where we can't even work out what the country of origin might be to give a headstart on working out who the maker might have been.
m
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Distasteful to whom?
To me, as previously stated. that's only my feeling on the matter.
Chinese paperweight production has not yet moved away from the mass markets. Even the latest items, with their much neater designs and finishing, and with fancy marketing descriptions, are still mass produced for the gift trade and sold very cheaply.
Yes, I fully understand what you are saying, but this surely can have diverse consequences, that could be also damaging to the collector/buyer. If these paperweights are mass produced like you have said and with neater and better finishing, will of course make it more difficult for people like you and me to identify paperweights now and in the future. Just like any other product, there should be some form of being able to identifying paperweights that come from China or any other country that have mass produced products with no identity? Now I clearly understand why a maker or period is unlikely to be found. As far as I am concerned, any product whether gifts or for export purposes, should be identified to the manufacturer. If there was a fault, who would be liable? If the content during the making was illegal, who would be liable? Probably now thinking about it. distasteful maybe the wrong word to use. How about disturbing? Labels and markings are very important. Not only to the collector, but for safety reasons too.
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Your use of the word 'disturbing' I would agree with.
It is not good not to be able to trace back a product to it's place of manufacture for very many reasons. I avoid buying that type of new or recently produced product where at all possible. But of course I do buy second hand and vintage goods - I just try and select those carefully.
m
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Hi Otis
The issue of labelling the origin of goods and of safety of goods are complex, and governed by the relevant legislation in the country of sale.
In the EU (at the moment) it is not a requirement to label imported goods with the country of origin (whereas it is a requirement in China, Japan, and the US for example). And even if one chooses to attach such a label, there is another issue of 'added value'. If you import raw materials or components, then fabricate an item, where was it made? The answer in many places is 'wherever the greatest value was added'. So if you import a Chinese paperweight into country X, polish the base, stick on a label, and put it in a fancy box, you may well have added more value that the original cost - and can label it 'Product of X'. I recall that there were masses of paperweights for sale in IKEA a few years ago for £1 each ( I think), which were transparent glass blobs with random bubbles inside, in various colours. They looked to me to be of Chinese origin (matt ground bases that were not quite circular), but carried no labels.
Regarding safety, for new items in the UK I think this might fall under the Sale of Goods Act, and be the responsibility of the retailer. So they would need to check that a paperweight was 'safe' before putting it on the shelves, which would mean checking and testing for any risks (not sure what if anything this might be with a glass paperweight, but for example being radioactive, or emitting poisons) and being able to prove that they had done so.
There is a significant problem with labelling paperweights, of course - the labels often fall off, or get removed because they interfere with the design.
Alan
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The main problem is you are generally talking second hand. These items bought new and retail often have labels at least relating to safety and you can of course always return to the the retailer with your complaint. When items are sold for their decorative value as the vast majority are, people remove the undecorative label, as is natural if it is obtrusive. The collector market is a mere fraction of the buying public (who often don't care where something is made only that it meets their requirements, be they functional or decorative) and the collectors who buy second hand are just some of the collector market.
Mass produced items are rarely sold to meet the needs of future collectors, merely to meet the current needs of the great buying public. There is no profit in the secondary market for the manufacturer so why should they care. Be realistic please
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check out this site if you haven't seen it: http://contempglass.org/seeing-glass/glass-for-sale .
this is the secondary market and who can determine in what country some of these were originally produced. Some of these artists have worked all over the world and I'm sure none of these pieces have the country of origin on them. Anyways, I thought this was an interesting site and really shows the "secondary" market for contemporary art glass. Note that anything under $1000 cannot be listed. check out the wanted items, anyone here have some of these setting in their closet.
sure out of my budget. I guess that glass has attained some higher levels in the "art world" in recent years.
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There is no profit in the secondary market for the manufacturer so why should they care. Be realistic please
::) :o Because we all live on this planet and should care about the environment! Cheap labour, cheap goods and no governing laws to protect the workers and consumers? I'm real for sure.. Have you seen the news lately? :)
Wow! Fuhrman Glass, a very interesting site indeed. Thanks! I will look into this further, later today. ;)
Regarding safety, for new items in the UK I think this might fall under the Sale of Goods Act, and be the responsibility of the retailer. So they would need to check that a paperweight was 'safe' before putting it on the shelves, which would mean checking and testing for any risks (not sure what if anything this might be with a glass paperweight, but for example being radioactive, or emitting poisons) and being able to prove that they had done so.
There is a significant problem with labelling paperweights, of course - the labels often fall off, or get removed because they interfere with the design.
Alan
Hi Alan, Yes, I would entirely agree with you on that. It is most definitely a serious issue and needs to be addressed as a way forward in this 'realistic' world we currently live in. Thank you very much for your input. It definitely helps me understand the complexity of laws, especially pertaining to, 'The Sale of Goods Act'.
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Were not alot of scottish weights mass produced and pumped out to tourists and visitors alike,bread and butter is the term often used so where is the line between bread and butter and mass produced.?
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Quantity?
I am trying to look up some numbers as this answer is totally irrelevant without knowing the numbers - but I remember looking on a website at Chinese produced items, and they were being sold to retailers for very low cost... but the quantities that had to be ordered in one batch were gigantic (and that was just for vases, not paperweights).
I think that Derek? (I think it was Derek) informed me of some numbers of Caithness production (I think it was - need to find the posts to confirm this), so it would be interesting to compare the quantities of what might be 'bread and butter' production, versus 'mass production'.
Alan mentions some quantities here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,43283.msg241559.html#msg241559
'I recall a Newspaper article a year or so ago which recounted how some people in Murano were arrested for fraud, and over 13 million (yes, 13 million) glass items of Chinese manufacture were impounded from a warehouse. They had been labelling these and selling them as Murano. The problem, as I understand it, is that under EU rules you can import something into Murano for, say, 1 unit of currency; do work of value 1.1 unit of currency (eg sticking a label on and putting it in a box); and then label it quite legally as Made in Murano.'
I'll come back once I get a minute to find the sources for comparison :)
m
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This was one of the posts I recall
there was some discussion of estimated numbers of total Caithness production of paperweights over 30 years and the estimated total over 30years was 3 million
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37990.msg210197.html#msg210197
I'll try and find any others but you can see when compared to 13 million items being impounded at one time, there is quite a large difference. Of course those 13 million items will have come from different suppliers and they will not have all been paperweights I would guess - China is a vast country and as far as I know has many glassmaking enterprises, far more than say the number of makers putting out 'bread and butter' production in this country would have been.
m
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http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,41834.msg271340.html#msg271340
This was a post I put on last year on Chinese production of glass.
As I said in the post regarding the link as it was at that time:
'In the link I give below,just on the first page the minimum order for one of the vases is 10,000 pieces!'
It isn't directly comparable as I wasn't looking at paperweights at the time so I can't give numbers for those, but I think this demonstrates the kind of quantities of one item that are flooding into the market.
I can't imagine Caithness produced 10,000 of any one item but I really don't know?
m
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One should not forget also that the 'bread and butter' product of today may be the desirable collectable of tomorrow. For instance, quite a few collectors (myself included) collect 'Chinese whites'; originally, these were made for the export market (and could not be more 'bread and butter' production), but now there are highly sought after.
SophieB
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We've lost the point of this. The issue was why aren't Chinese paperweights labelled. The answer was because they are mass produced in vast quantities for the gift and decorative markets not for the current or the future collectibles markets. Which was the point of my comment here
There is no profit in the secondary market for the manufacturer so why should they care [about labelling for second hand buyers]. Be realistic please
So Otis said ::) :o Because we all live on this planet and should care about the environment! Cheap labour, cheap goods and no governing laws to protect the workers and consumers? I'm real for sure.. Have you seen the news lately? :)
Which was nothing to do with my answer, which solely about labelling for identification purposes.
Lots of bread and butter items are collectibles now - to give a non-paperweight example you only have to look at the huge depression glass market but it was neither made or sold with a view to future collectors, merely for putting your bread and butter on!
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I am aware how cumbersome this can be, that is, the influx of paperweights that are mass produced with no form of real identity. Like I said, this can create issues for the collector, retailer and consumer. It is important, especially in this day and age that there is control, which also should incorporate standards of safety. A lot of paperweights comes via. the market as Murano and sometimes labelled as Murano, when in fact, they are actually Chinese. Properly labelling and marking paperweights, is the way forward, as far as I am concerned and I am sure, most of you would agree. A lot of time is being exhausted trying to identify even the most modernist of paperweights.
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Hi there,
You may be interested in this site. It shows a lot of Chinese weights (and others too):
http://verredart.atspace.com
Having said that, your weight is not shown on the site and I believe that some of the Murano millefiori shown there are in fact 'Chirano'.
Still it may help.
SophieB
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Sophie, I would be interested in seeing which of the Murano weights you believe are from China. I saw only a few that I would question and only one or two that I would definitively say were from China.
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Hi there,
You may be interested in this site. It shows a lot of Chinese weights (and others too):
http://verredart.atspace.com
SophieB
Hi Sophie, I too have concerns to your reference. Can you be specific in stating the ones that you think are Chinese. Having looked at the site, I am having difficulty in identifying the Chinese paperweights. Thanks!
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Hi. I have had a look too, and I think at least 5 of the Murano are probably of Chinese origin. Some have Murano labels. I'm not sure how to reference them easily, but counting down from the Fratelli Toso 1997 spiral egg, they are 2, 5, 16 and 19. The other is the 'Card suit' paperweight higher up.
To see similar canes in use just check out 'Murano paperweight' on Alibaba or Made-in-China, and explore the websites of the manufacturers. eg http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/463088822/Murano_glass_paperweight.html (http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/463088822/Murano_glass_paperweight.html). You will find even more if you search on 'glass paperweight'.
Alan
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Hi there,
Sorry about the long silence. Work took over my life!!!
Luckily Alan (Tropdevin) has already replied to the question. The weights he has identified as Chinese are those that I suspect of being Chinese too (despite the label in some of the cases).
Sophie
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Hi Sophie, Firstly I must apologise too, for the delayed response. Thanks for replying to my concerns. Yes, Alan has most certainly answered my question and I am very grateful to you all for your help and references provided. :)