Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Otis Orlando on May 30, 2013, 12:53:12 AM
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I'm having difficulty in the identification of this pressed milk plaque with grape pattern design. The plaque measures approx. 23.2cm dia. The rim base is 14.2cm dia. Within the centre of the the base rim are the markings as shown that I must admit, not familiar with. This same marking also appears on the laced area at the back of the plaque. My question is,........why would there be the necessity to mark the plaque twice and could this be, due to the plaque being made in two sections? Striation lines also can be clearly seen within the base area. Well, that's what I think they are. ::)
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The markings are a British design registration diamond. You can look up the details of the registration here on the Great Glass site: http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/lozkey.htm
The two marks are for two separate registrations, one for the design in the centre, while the other was for the border pattern.
Don't need to look this one up though to find the maker: This plate was made by Greener, there's a black example shown in Victorian Table Glass and Ornaments by Barbara Morris.
:)
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I can confirm that the plates were indeed made by Henry Greener of Sunderland. They normally bear the Greener '1st-lion' trademark (a demi lion facing left with star in outstretched paws) and the registery date lozenge for 29 July 1876 - Parcel 6, corresponding to a registered design number of 302199.
I attach photos of an opaque turquoise blue example and the trademark and lozenge from an opaque white example. I know both the white and blue examples were marked on the flat part of the underside but can't recall if there was a second set of marks.
Certainly both lozenges on Otis Orlando's example seem to read the same (though Greener did use multiple registration numbers on some of their later pieces, especially the baskets with rustic handles).
I can only remember seeing 9 inch plates in this pattern, though Jenny Thompson gives a description as " a dessert service (vine and grapes)". Does anyone have photos of other shapes for RD 302199
Fred.
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I had a large oval plate in this pattern in clear frosted; I'm not sure if I still have the pics though. I think there's an example shown in Manley too, but I could be wrong there...
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Does anyone have photos of other shapes for RD 302199
Fred.
Fred:
I have a photo of a rectangular tray with the open work edge but the center design is a basket weave not the grapes. It is not my photo and I don't know where I harvested it from either so can't go back and get permissions. I have wondered if the registration was for the open work edge but Thompson mentions the grapes.
If you send me an email, I can attach the photo with my reply for your files.
Sid
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I think these may be the same date registered , they are Henry Greener in this post will check later.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50466.msg285223.html#msg285223
Roy
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Oh great! that's fantastic news. I certainly did not expect the plaque to be as old as that. Thank you ever so much for your findings Steven. Even though Fred has kindly provided me with all the info. currently needed to date the plaque, I thought It best that I too, know how to do this, for future references, that is. ::) ;D.
With reference to this site: http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/lozkey.htm
I thought I would just let you know, I have noticed that the marking 'Rd' is different to the marking on the plaque I have posted. It only has the letter 'R'. Should that make any difference?
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I presume that the 'd' in 'Rd' sometimes appears to be missing because of a worn or badly cut mould, and sometimes because of insufficient pressure during the actual pressing process. It's the letters and digits in the internal angles of the lozenge that are the important date indicators (the Roman numerals in the circle at the top indicating the registration Class - in this case III for glass).
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I can report that I have received the photos from Sid “of the a rectangular tray with the open work edge but the center design is a basket weave not the grapes”
Although the photo of the lozenge is not of the best it is still sufficiently good to confirm the date letters and digits as those for RD 302199 of 29 July 1876 - Parcel 6, the same as that on the 'grape and vine' plates.
I have checked the description from the online registration summary at The National Archives and it is given simply as "A desert [dessert] service" - despite what Jenny Thompson says - so the pertinent design feature could well be the looped border rather than any enclosed pattern.
I will post the relevant details on the GMB RD look-up to try and clarify what the registration drawings depict in due course.
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good piece Otis - nice find. :) Just a little reminder to say that, as we all know, it doesn't follow that a piece of pressed glass will have necessarily been made on the actual registration date, or even the same year. Some moulds were in service for some considerable time, which is one of the reasons for the occasional poor legibility of lozenges and Rd. Nos. - another reason will be as Fred has pointed out that it was simply a poor pressing.
Sometimes it's possible to find pressed glass with Reg. details so poor that it makes you wonder for how many years they might have been used.
If you would like me to have a look at the original Registration details in the U.K. archives, let me know. :)
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Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to how long the oval tray in this pattern (grape centre/openwork edge) was being made? How late do you reckon this specific oval dish (marked with the diamond lozenge) is likely to have been produced?
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I should have added that looking at the archives won't remotely give the answer to that question, but it's a good question. With all your research experience with pressed glass Glen, you must have a better idea than most of us of some general indication regarding the life span of moulds. :)
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This particular piece puzzles me. I have seen a Carnival Glass example of it and I wondered if there was any proof for its lengthy production. Fascinating!
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.............and presumably the carnival example didn't have the lozenge??
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Paul, it DOES have the lozenge. That's why this is so fascinating. It could turn the Carnival world upside down if it could be proved to have been made before 1900.
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Paul, I've already put the details on the GMB RD look-up to try and clarify the situation regarding the novelty in the design.
It would also be interesting to have some idea of the range of different shapes (or even sizes) from the set.
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thanks for the clarification Glen - I was unsure - you'll have realized by now that I know very little about carnival :). Is the occurence of lozenges on carnival material a rare thing or not uncommon?
I understand from listening to some of the pressed glass people that the re-use of older moulds is a not uncommon thing, and perhaps to be regretted - I believe that it happens more on the other side of the pond.
I seem to recall that we had a related conversation some time ago - it's a bit of a soap-box of mine - just my opinion, of course, that - as you are now suggesting - the re-use of older moulds can only harm modern research, and create confusion. Is it at all possibly that they were throwing salts into the pots or whatever in 1876? What is the earliest recorded date for this practise? :)
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Paul, yes it is exceptionally unusual to find a lozenge on Carnival (with the exception of Australian Carnival). As to the re-use of moulds, Sowerby did quite a bit of that. Their Covered Swan Carnival butter can be found (albeit rarely) with a faint RD on the inside of the lid. The Sowerby catalogues prove the re-use of some of their old moulds for use in Carnival Glass.
I suspect that is what happened with the Greener piece - the mould was pulled out and re-used. But when? The Carnival example of this item is the only example currently reported, to the best of my knowledge, so there can't have been many made.
Iridescent glass was first exhibited in Europe at the Vienna Exposition of 1873 by the Lobmeyrs. In the United States iridescent glass was first exhibited in 1876 at the Centennial Exhibition in Philadelphia - by Lobmeyr. (This info is courtesy of Frank Andrews Glass Study archive).
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thanks for the information Glen - very interesting and informative. :)
Fred - I will look at the Kew details on my next visit, and post some pix if these are available.
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I attach photos of an opaque turquoise blue example and the trademark and lozenge from an opaque white example. I know both the white and blue examples were marked on the flat part of the underside but can't recall if there was a second set of marks.
No offence, but steering back to the subject matter in question, I was able to retrieve an example of one of the plates you have mentioned during my searches, but there is no mention of another marking. On the 6th picture, which only shows 2/3rds of the plate, where I was hoping a marking would be visible in the same area as mine.
Ebay Item No. 151039240214
good piece Otis - nice find. :) Some moulds were in service for some considerable time, which is one of the reasons for the occasional poor legibility of lozenges and Rd. Nos. - another reason will be as Fred has pointed out that it was simply a poor pressing.
Sometimes it's possible to find pressed glass with Reg. details so poor that it makes you wonder for how many years they might have been used.
If you would like me to have a look at the original Registration details in the U.K. archives, let me know. :)
Thanks Paul, I must say, the lozenge and Rd No.s emboss marks are prominently raised and clearly visible to the eye. The photos I've taken, don't really do justice. This would indicate to me that the mould might be an earlier piece from the original cast? Please, don't quote me on this, I am only summersizing from past items posted, where markings have been poor and comments have been made. You mentioned that Fred had pointed out about poor press marks:
I presume that the 'd' in 'Rd' sometimes appears to be missing because of a worn or badly cut mould, and sometimes because of insufficient pressure during the actual pressing process. It's the letters and digits in the internal angles of the lozenge that are the important date indicators (the Roman numerals in the circle at the top indicating the registration Class - in this case III for glass).
This gave me reason to look at the marking on my plate again. During my observation I have noticed that the 'R' is central within the located area and there would be no room to for the 'd'. So I would not describe my plaque as a defect in the mould or characters/numbers missing, hence, my reason for querying that there is only a 'R' and not 'Rd' in my previous reply. ::)
It would be a pleasure if you are able to devote your time to look up the original reg. details in the U.K. So, in answer to your question. Yes please! :)
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hello Otis....... I'll certainly have a look at the Archive records on my next visit, and provide some pix if these are available, although as I've already mentioned, I can't imagine that this will help in any way to indicate a manufacturing date for your piece. This situation is a common occurence with pressed glass - but you're right to believe that crisp and clear impressions of marks would normally indicate an earlier rather than later pressing. :)
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Thank you, in anticipation and appreciate your help.
It is of concern though, when difficulty arises when trying to date a piece, especially with no markings, irrespective of ones with markings. I think it is solely down to the judgement of glass specialist that can determine a date, but this too, can be inconclusive.
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During my search I came accross this site that maybe of some help to present and new GMB members:
http://1st-glass.1st-things.com/lozengetranslator.html
:)
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believe some GMB members use this site too Otis when decyphering the lozenges - and thanks for the link :) Some of the U.K. published books also give these details, so reading a lozenge for most of us this side of the pond is not a problem - although your link is probably of more value your side. Unfortunately, knowing all of these details still won't provide a date as to when any given piece was pressed - other than, as we discussed, very clear relief details are more likely to have been produced near to the Rd. date - whilst those that are indistinct are probably not ;D
I might try and have a word with Raymond Slack and get his opinion on this issue.
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Otis is in the UK...
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my sincere apologies Otis, so sorry, obviously having a senior moment. :-[ thanks Christine.
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No problem Paul and Christine is correct. :) I've just been looking up information regarding Henry Greener and your previous post in 2009, regarding pressed glass and ref. to one of Raymond Slack's books. Another book that I will need to add to my collection. :)
1. http://www.inchicore-pressedglass-museum.org/Greener1.htm
2. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?topic=28639.0
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Otis, Raymond Slack's "English Pressed Glass 1830-1900" (ISDBN 0712618716) is currently available via www.amazon.co.uk from £40 (sounds a lot, but it cost £30 when it was published in 1987!). If you are prepared to wait, you may get a copy via eBay for less (I think the last copy sold for about £25).
Another essential reference book is, of course, Jenny Thompson's " The Identification of English Pressed Glass 1848-1908", self-published in 1989 (ISBN 0951549103). Currently available via Amazon for around £25, but there have been a few recently on ebay for less than £10.
There is also a Supplement to Jenny Thompson's book, published in 1993 (ISBN 0951549111), currently £5.20 on Amazon (and usually about the same the same on eBay when listed).
Sheilagh Murray's "The Peacock and the Lions- The Story of Pressed Glass in the North East of England", Oriel Press, 1982 (ISBN 0853621977) concentrates on the output of the Davidson, Sowerby and Greener glass works but is now looking rather dated (with hardly a reference to registered design numbers). Currently avalable via Amazon from around £12. It does, However have some useful photographs (including a colour photo of the turquoise 'grape and vine' plate as a frontispiece - no mention of date or lozenge, just the lion & star trademark), and, interestingly, a mononchrome photo (plate 65) of the large circular plate with looped edging and floral decoration (shown by Roy in reply #5 of this thread) noted as having a lion and star trademark - so obviously Greener - but, again, no mention of a lozenge or date .
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Slack's book being offered at £40 sounds excessively cheap - think I paid twice that. :'(
Is this another instance of piracy/plagiarism - does it say the book is printed 'on demand'?
If not, and it's a genuine offer of a secondhand copy of the original print run, then it seems a bargain and should be snapped up. It is currently probably the best of the books on pressed glass. :)
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Slack (none print-on-demand) - 10 copies from £40 currently on Amazon:
Fine in fine dustjacket from gardenhutbooks - £40.00;
VG in VG dustjacket from RA Yardley (Books) - £57.00;
Good copy in like dustjacket from Bookbarn Internation - £57.59;
and onwards and upwards to £223.25 !! (though, after 25 years in the second-hand book trade, I wouldn't mind predicting that they still have that copy in 2025 at that price).
I actually bought my last copy of Slack for re-sale from eBay in January for £25.00 and sold it on eBay the following week for £45.00, which I think is probably about the going rate. Certainly, I think anything above £60 retail is excessively expensive.
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oh gawd...........I wos dun then :'(
However, Raymond Slack did inscribe my copy .......Best Wishes etc. etc., so that probably adds another couple of quid :)
Copies seem to be coming out of the workwork for some reason - maybe it's only you, me, Roy, Sid and Neil that now collect pressed glass ;)
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Oh dear! to think, we are in a recession. :'( I suppose there are other alternatives to obtaining some of these books cheaply. ::) Like they say, " the early bird catches the worm", well in my case it's "the early worm that will be catching the book." ;D
Thank you all ever so much for your help. I never would of thought an aged pressed plaque would not only of gathered dust, but also a vast amount interest. The only reason why I purchased the plaque, is because I thought it might glow under UV light. :-[ Well, you can omit the UV, but the light in my darkest times of searching............are you!
Thanks again. :)
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I did speak to Raymond Slack regarding the matter of longevity of use of moulds - although get the feeling that the answer is not a simple one. Slack's book is an essential read if you're into pressed glass, and contains much of interest regarding all aspects of mould making and use - with information detailing such matters as the acquistion of one factory's moulds by another, and the melting of moulds for armaments during the first war. It seems obvious that some moulds were used over a long period, and not always by the same factory in whose hands they started life.
Re your comments Otis regarding a possible 'glow' - keep using the torch - one day you might come across a piece of 'Patent Queen's Ivory Ware' - not only does that carry a lozenge, but it also glows well, having both arsenic and uranium in the mix. It has the appearance of being ceramic, but is in fact glass, and is discussed in the book.
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Re your comments Otis regarding a possible 'glow' - keep using the torch - one day you might come across a piece of 'Patent Queen's Ivory Ware' - not only does that carry a lozenge, but it also glows well, having both arsenic and uranium in the mix. It has the appearance of being ceramic, but is in fact glass, and is discussed in the book.
Thanks Paul, I appreciate your valuable information. I'm now sifting through some of my past pieces that have never been identified. Praying that I will find a Qeen's Ivory Ware' ;D........................... Don't look very promising :'(.
I can't really say I was into press glass,even though I do buy it now and again, but I am now, thanks to you all. ::).
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unfortunately, nothing in the Kew records to indicate this was manufactured in anything other than plain and coloured Vitro-Porcelain - I assume that is what the examples shown here are - has it been said as much, I've rather lost the plot.
Sorry the second pic is a bit duff, but it confirms the comments made earlier about this pattern being part of 'An Ornamental Design for a Desert Service' - alghough I wasn't aware of seeing different shaped pieces in the Registers. Might it not be unreasonable to infer from this description of a 'Desert Service', that at the time of Registration and perhaps for some while after, this design was used soley for table purposes and not for Ornamental purposes - as would be implied if the piece had been conceived with iridescent carnival in mind - just my thoughts - I've no experience of seeing the word carnival in the registers, so probably flying a kite here.
None of this helps to date Otis' piece, and any suggestion of such would be purely speculative. But a good find nonetheless Otis, and a good 'conversational' piece. ;D
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Hi Paul, sorry I have not been able to get back to you until now. Thanks for looking all the same and for your most recent info. I'm not sure what you meant by vitro-porcelain, so decided to look this up. I found information, that it was first introduced in the USA in the 1930's. Then I found that Sowerby produced Vitro-Porcelain in 1877. I'm confused ::). In other words, I'm trying to find out if my piece can also be referred to as Vitro-porcelain.
This site below, that you are probably familiar with has some interesting information, as I was unaware that some moulds were sold to other companies, which of course, if this occurred with my piece, yes it would be difficult to date.
http://www.pressedintime.com/sowerby.htm
With reference to your second and third picture, are these glass and if so, is my piece an ornamental or is it a 'desert service?'.
During further investigation I came across this site:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-SET-5-HENRY-GREENER-SOWERBY-OPAL-MILK-GLASS-PLATES-1876-/300876710926?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item460da6440e#ht_4318wt_1200
The information within the description refer to Henry Greener working for Sowerby and then pulling out to work on his own. Is this correct? As previously mentioned, I'm not knowledgeable on the subject matter in question, so please forgive me if I have not been clear on anything mentioned. It's just that I have become very interested in the plaque/plate and would very much like to find out as much as I can about it, even if a date cannot be ascertained. I wonder why the pictures have also been removed. ::)
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Yes your plate is vitro-porcelain; it just means glass that looks like china. Paul's pictures are from the archives at Kew so are photographs of drawings of glass. You piece is part of a dessert set. The use of the word ornamental here means pretty and functional rather than simply functional.
The missing pictures means the ebay seller has removed them from the hosting site.
Henry Greener worked for Sowerby as a salesman as a young man before going into business with James Angus in the Wear Flint Glass Works. He started his career in glass as an apprentice to John Price at age 12. He didn't have sole control of a business until Angus died and he was 49 (Slack, p85).
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Thanks Christine for clarifying this. The information you have provided is more than helpful and hope to get some of the books Paul has suggested, soon. I Appreciate your help :).