Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Greg. on June 01, 2013, 04:49:09 PM
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Hi All,
Looking for some further clarification on this bulbous shaped lilac vase with numerous internal bubbles, with clear casing.
Fire polished rim and ground concave polished pontil mark to the base. The shape reminds me of Monart, however, the base treatment is not typical of the majority of Monart i have encountered.
Fairly large example, weighing 1950 grams and around 8.5 inches tall and with a rim diameter of 4 inches.
All thoughts welcome, thanks in advance.
Greg
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Hi Greg not Monart, sorry can't be of anymore help, the base is all wrong for Monart and it is not a shape I recognise as Monart.
Gary
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Thanks for taking a look Gary and ruling out Monart, I'll take a look into a few other British contenders.
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Walsh Pompeian range did do a purple, but I've not been able to find your shape (and I wasn't sure about whether the bubbles were right on yours and I think they might have had rough pontil marks). Have you checked the base very carefully for a mark? The Walsh mark is incredibly difficult to spot and very small.
See here for detailed information from Bernard
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,167.msg599.html#msg599
Stevens and Williams did a bubbly glass - link here, and I thought of them for some reason, when seeing your vase
http://www.millersantiquesguide.com/items/103178/a-1930s-stevens-williams-royal-/
but I don't know enough about either of their ranges to make a judgement. Hopefully will give you something to search on though.
m
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The bubbles look too big for Pompeian, though the pontil mark is fine, but the purple doesn't look purple enough
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Thanks M and Christine for taking a look and for the above links, much appreciated. This certainly appears to be a difficult subject area to research.
The bubbles are tricky to capture accurately, however, I think picture 2 above, is the closest representation. The bubbles' sizes and shapes do vary, but as a generalisation tend to be tall and thin. The vase also has a very slight textured feel from the bubbles inside the vase.
Thanks for the comment on the bubble size for Walsh Pompeian, after looking through quite a few examples of Pompeian I was struggling to find an accurate match for the bubble size/shape. I did also have a good look over the base for any indication of a Walsh mark, however, can't see one, although I do appreciate that the absence of a Walsh mark may not also be conclusive.
I'll keep digging and have also have a look into S&W and of course any additional thoughts/insights are most welcome.
Thanks,
Greg
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It's very, very similar to a great charger which was on here some years ago, which I remember was finally attributed to S&W.
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Thanks for taking a look Sue, I'll see what a search into S&W throws up.
:)
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Still looking at examples of S&W although no exact match at present.
I did come across another example, which looks the same as mine, which was posted on the WF site a number of years ago, although no definitive conclusion was reached:
http://whitefriars.com/isit_contents.php?ID=1582
I wonder if Nazeing might be a possible candidate or at least worth ruling out...? I have seen a couple of Nazeing examples with similar internal bubbles, although no exact match in terms of shape to date:
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18902/lot/28/
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The colour doesn't gather around the bubbles in the same way I'd have thought for Nazeing but I could be wrong.
Can we have a clear side on picture of the lower part of the vase so the casing can be seen clearly at the bottom and how deep it is please? Is the vase very heavy?
It reminds me of this Stevens and Williams Rainbow vase but with higher neck on yours. Maybe it was something like Stevens and Williams made for Elwell perhaps?
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1198.jpg
I think there's a Stevens and Williams purple bowl in one of the books with these bubbles - page 148 by Keith Murray of Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass, but the bubbles look a watery but further spaced out than yours.
m
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Hi M, thanks once again for your thoughts. I have taken a handful of photos from different angles of the casing around the bottom of the vase; please let me know if you need any other views or better shots. The depth of the casing at the bottom of the vase is around 8mm. The vase is fairly heavy; it’s just a shade less than 2kg, weighing 1945 grams.
I had a look through the Keith Murray examples in Hajdamach’s 20th Century Glass, as you mention the bubbles on the amethyst bowl on page 148, tend not to look quite right, they also generally look wider and less elongated than the bubbles in my example, I gather these were simply named ‘Cased Bubbly’.
The pink vases on page 148 and the blue example I see are called ‘Silver Showers’, I think one is a similar vase as you posted a link to earlier. There is another example in the following link, which allows you to view the bubbles closer, perhaps these bubbles do look a closer match, when zooming in, it’s hard to tell for sure. Although I am still trying to find an amethyst/purple example in a similar shape to mine:
http://www.wellersauctions.com/e-catalogues/antiques-jewellery/archive-2012/fri-21st-sep-jewellery-watches-pocket-watches-decorative-arts-costume-textiles/decorative-arts-at-10-30am/lot-58.html
I see on page 105 in reference to S&W and Elwell, there’s also a reference to ‘Shower Bubbly’, which I will try to look into further. I presume the bubbles here are different to the ‘Silver Showers’ example in the above link.
I’ll keep the focus on S&W, certainly seems the closest thus far. One things for sure there's certainly a lot of different bubbles out there when you get looking!
Thanks for all your help to date.
Greg
:)
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Greg great pictures - I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here as I'm not really sure what I'm explaining or asking, but looking at your close up base pics, it appears that the vase was made with a layer of purple, then a layer of clear with bubbles over the top then a layer of clear certainly at the base. It's interesting, yet you said you can feel the bubbles on the interior of the vase. That thick casing reminds me of a cloudy vase I have by S&W which also has a very thick clear cased base.
The only thing I noticed is that compared to the pink one you linked to, your bubbles look as though they are closer together and more of them if you see what I mean? So perhaps it's not a S&W range. Sorry to not be more helpful ::)
However if your base is flat despite the wreathing on it, then I can say it looks very similar to my cloudy vase. The difference is the clear casing on my cloudy vase is about 12mm thick. On balance I'd still be searching for an S&W link to your vase ;D
here's a link to the base pic of my pink cloudy http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,41369.msg228957.html#msg228957
I think the pink one you linked above looks like the ones by KM in the book but is just a different shape. The way the colour graduates from darker at the top etc is very similar to the pink ones in the book as well. If it's the same range then perhaps they got the range description wrong in that linked ad when they called it 'Silver Rain'? Maybe they meant 'Silver Showers' ( or even Shower Bubbly or Cased Bubbly' - see explanation below) as the bubbly ones in the book are described as:
'This range appears in the Murray pattern book about 1938 and is called 'Sapphire Cased Bubbly'. The first pattern number, 1039A, for the pink bucket vase has a pencil annotated title of 'Silver Showers'. The two vases in pink and blue, are part of the same series. The amethyst bowl and the green vase are part of the later range, added one hundred pattern numbers later, and simply called 'Cased Bubbly'. '
So it appears they were called three different names, and from the description perhaps two different 'ranges' since they were 100 pattern numbers apart (even though they look very similar)? I'm speculating because I really don't know anything about Stevens and Williams and have never seen any pattern books. Then added to which you have the reference to S&W and Elwell range being called 'Shower Bubbly'. So maybe they produced four bubbly ranges. There doesn't appear to be a picture in the book of the Elwell Shower Bubbly to compare to.
m
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Hello All,
The vase in question is:
1 - A known Stevens & Williams shape
2 - A known S&W colour way
3 - A known type of bubbling by S&W - as also proved by the link to the pink Keith Murray vase. Random bubbles on each individually made item are not likely to be identical because of the way they are made - sometimes larger bubbles predominate, sometimes small, then again there can be a good mix. Why make identifying things so narrow??
The name Silver Showers on Keith Murray does NOT apply to pink pieces, nor to those with silver (or mica) inclusions. It applies ONLY to the pale sapphire blue colour with random bubblng. The bubbles reflect and refract the light, making it appear like rain - hence the name.
So S&W ;) ;D
Nigel
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Thank you !
you're a great tutor Nigel :)
m
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Hi Nigel,
Thank you for putting me out of my misery and also for the clarification regarding 'Silver Showers', much appreciated indeed. :)
Just to check, would the colour way or type of bubbling on my vase have a specific name at all..? and in terms of date, would the late 30s also be an accurate assumption?
Finally, many thanks also M, for all your help.
Greg
:)
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on page 148 of the book it says the range was designed by Keith Murray c 1938/1939 and appears in the KM pattern book about 1938.
Interestingly the book says ''Bubbly Vases' and bowl designed by Keith Murray for Stevens and Williams - their has been discussion of when they changed their name to Royal Brierley on other threads and as far as I can see it was thought to be post a Royal visit in 1932. I wonder if they were still called Stevens and Williams then in 1938/1939? I'll have another look through the book later and see if there is any further evidence for the date of the name change.
m
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Thanks for clarifying M, forgive my misunderstanding, I wasn't completely sure my vase fitted into the same range as the Keith Murray designs as shown on page 148. Its good know, thank you.
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Hmm,
Whilst Stevens & Williams produced designs by Keith Murray and their own production items, these should not be confused. Sometimes it would appear that Murray influenced the production items with his initial designs, but to be honest that has not been proven - it is an assumption.
In order to prove it one way or another, the original records would need to be compared. However, even then it would be difficult as the Description Books, which show the recorded designs with production information, are not dated specifically. The one concerning Murray is continuous and no dates are shown to determine which year they were produced. That has to be compared with trade catalogues, adverts, contemporary articles and the like in order to get an approximation of a year of production.
The production ware has similar problems as the dates for each book are not for one specific year but a number of years and the fresh year is not marked in the book.
I am not aware of a specific name for the bubbled range at this point in time.
It is possible that, like 'Rainbow Ware' these pieces could be both pre, and post war.
Cheers, Nigel
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Thanks :) The caption to the bubbly vases in the book is confusing in the way it has been written.
m
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Thanks for the explanation Nigel, much appreciated. :)
Greg
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Finally came across the example in the below link, which I thought I would add for reference, which is the same shape.
http://fieldingsauctions.co.uk/lot/5194
As eluded to earlier, I presume this shape or very similar was used across both Keith Murrary designs and Stevens & Williams own production items, so whilst not definitive, interesting to see a marked Keith Murray example, nevertheless.
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I'm going to seem really pedantic now :-[, but that's not the same shape as far as I can see. The neck has been constructed differently and it seems slightly more bulbous. And we don't know how it's marked. It just says acid stamped. It might be acid stamped S&W rather than Keith Murray.
m
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:) Don't worry, the devil is always in the detail! Just comparing both side by side, you may well be right about the neck, its hard to see exactly as the other photo is taken at a slightly elevated angle, however, the neck does certainly appear shorter on the one in the link. Both of the heights seem ok.
I think this underlines the previous point mentioned regarding the similarities and influences between both S&W's own production and the Keith Murray designs. :)
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I'm away for about a week from early tomorrow, but could Greg and m email me concerning the linked vase please?
For other readers, please don't believe everything that you find online :( ???
Nigel
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Hi Nigel - I've emailed you. Many thanks, Greg
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Just my tuppence worth, but the vase in the fieldings auction and the original vase look like completely different species to me.
The auction one is much thinner - it doesn't look cased, the neck is short, the bubbles aren't right, the colour is consistent rather than shaded - I'd never have suspected S&W - but I'm not in any way somebody who can recognise S&W in general - I just know a couple of bits really - this purple bubbly design and the rainbow one. ;D