Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bat20 on July 07, 2013, 03:50:24 PM
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I found this today,pretty unloved i would say and i hope i can rescue it! It's 13 cm ht and 8 cm wd with a ground smooth pontil and a cut stem,also weighty with a very long ring to it,any help with id would be great,many thanks..
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I'd agree with the suggestion of rummer. If the stem is cut and you have a good ring, then I'm assuming the bowl decoration is cut too, which in my opinion would probably date the glass to around 1840 - 1860 - perhaps a tad earlier. If the bottom of the inside of the bowl is less than clear, this might indicate the glass has been used for a type of drink called hot toddy - this involved mixing up the drink in a larger glass called a toddy rummer, using rum, brandy or gin, and adding lemon or nutmeg to flavour. After pouring into individual glasses, sugar was added and this was stirred and crushed with a galass toddy stick - this crushing would often cause the inside of the glass to become cloudy.
Had it been served today, they would have prepared it cold ;).
Probably more correct to call this one a drinking rummer, and these do go back a lot earlier than the date I've mentioned but I'm going on shape and the style of cut decoration when suggesting this period. It looks a bit too good to be a pub glass, but it might have originated from a similar source. Pub glasses weren't usually lead glass.
This is a good glass, full of history, and useful addition to the collection. :)
If Peter (old glassman) is there perhaps he will comment :)
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Thanks Paul very interesting,it has a very long sustain when you flick it and the fluting has irregular spacing ,some touching some not,i have to admit to finding the history part very exciting and it feels like a rescue! it's mindblowing glass that's used survives that period of time with no chips or cracks,funnily enough the inside seems good but sadly the outside seems slightly misty in places,i don't know about cleaning up glass or if it's possible ,but I'll look into it,thanks again..
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perhaps not used for hot toddy then. It's usually the insides of glasses that give the problem with discolouration or whatever - perhaps it will be less difficult to clean the outside - at least easier to get to.
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Hello 8),i don't know if this is of any interest to anyone whilst cleaning said rummer,come back nice,i noticed on the rim a very small, you have to angle it right, line of gold,would some of had a gold rim when made? thanks again..
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some were, although they tended to be the more up-market variety and it was mostly the coloured rummers that were gilded on the rim - bristol blue and ruby for example. Cold gilding was a less expensive method and didn't require the use of a muffle kilm - but apparently it wore off more quickly than the better sort which was fixed by firing.
You may well be correct, but are you sure this isn't an example of surface irridescence (a very slight case of glass sickness) - which can on occasions look a tad like worn gilding.
Gilding on rims of clear British drinking glasses is very rare, but seems to appear on some Scandi and Continental pieces I believe, so this might point to a non-British origin.
Try shoving a magnifying lens between the camera and rim, and see if you can capture this line of gold. :)
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Naff magnifying glass i'm afraid,you can just see a thin line to the right of the lens,it does look like gold live,hope this comes out..
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think I can see what you mean..... ;D From memory, on those very few pieces I've had - which once possessed gilding - since worn away -there remains a noticable matt area where the gilding was - as in the attached pic.
Not really sure about your example - perhaps others might comment. :)
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Yup that looks about it Paul,i'm certain this rummer had a gold rim when new,i've only got a cheapo camera i'm afraid,but having a good hard look at it now it's gold alright,thanks again,at some time in the future i'll post a better photo..
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Hi all,i have managed to get a better photo of the gilding on this rummer and just wondered if it hardens up any dating ideas people might have or origin.In the book I'm reading I've got to a passage where it states,"permanent gilding was not generally known in GB until about 1800.."
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not easy for us viewers to be confident that this 'mark' really is the remains of gilding (i.e. real gold) - bit too obscure too assess accurately on the screen, and although possible, this isn't a British style that might be associated with gilding ordinarily, but might be Continental.
Hard substances, like glass, can often 'pick up' a mark of colour from other material simply by grazing/bruising/impact in some way - try scratching it for say 1 - 2 mm, and see what happens - although appreciate you might not want to do that. Old lead based paint can sometimes transfer to hard substances, and mislead.
I don't think the possibility of this being gilding will change the suggested date line - my personal opinion remains that this is from somewhere in the middle third of the C19. Circular or oval 'punty' marks were a common form of simple cut decoration on drinking glasses during that period and together with the shape, help to date reasonably well, although I'm more than happy to be corrected should that be wrong :)
It seems a variety of processes were used to apply gilding to glass - some quite early methods (late C16) were amazingly permanent apparently - although you needed to be royalty to afford the work - some required burnishing in the same way that bookbinders used the agate stone, some used the muffle kiln which burned off the lavendar oil and honey carriers, and others used dodgy chemicals like mercury.
Like many activities which flourished during the industrial revolution, the mid C18 rise in British ceramics factories that copied the gilding of Continental wares may well have benefited the glass trade.
Probably depends of which author you read - some give a date of about 1770-80 (the mercury method) as the beginning of a more durable gilding which could withstand repeated decades of wear (and possibly the dishwasher) ;)
G. Bernard Hughes 'English, Scottish & Irish Table Glass' includes a relevant chapter on gilding plus has other info on the sort of glass you might collect, but if you know of a more recent and reliable volume, pease tell us. What's the title of the book you're reading at the moment??
I've attached pic of a rummer of sorts (probably Continental in view of the ground/polished/bevelled rim and panel of art nouveau style decoration - c. 1900 possibly) with very thick applied enamelled flowers etc., and some gilding which has survived quite well. Some of the gilding hasn't survived, so bit of a hit-and-miss process, and probably too fussy for modern taste in design.
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Good point Paul,what was permanent in the mid 19Th century may not be in the 20Th!thanks for your reply and making that extra effort to educate when you do and thanks for posting the glass photo, very interesting.I think I'm going to have to ask everyone to make a leap of faith about the gilding until my photography skills improve,a leap to far for some maybe lol,but i have no doubts.As for books it's still my O.N Wilkinson for now,thanks again..