Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: obscurities on August 25, 2013, 05:29:10 PM
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I am posting this to see if I can get any additional information on the attribution I have seen for this vase I recently acquired.
The Webb Bronze portion I am pretty sure is correct, but I am interested in any information regarding the Christopher Dresser attribution I have seen for the design.
Damage free and standing at a whopping 3.75 inches, this design could easily pass for a contemporary piece of glass, or an earlier modernist example. It always amazes me that something like this was designed (regardless of who did it) almost 135 years ago.
Any information regarding the piece is welcome...
I would add that through all my years of looking at glass, I have only seen this form a couple of time, and only pics.
TIA
Craig
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What can I say but: W O W
NICE, i LIKE!!!!
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Could not find anything in CH 1800-1914 British Glass linking Webb Bronze to Dresser.
I'm sorry I don't have any more recent books or anything specific on Dresser unfortunately.
I did find this page if you haven't already found it.
http://www.christopherdresser.co.uk/collections/Glass/glass.html
however I can't see anywhere unless I've missed it, with a definitive id of Dresser designed pieces for Thomas Webb.
m
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beautiful............thats what your piece is.......
ive gone through all my dresser reference and cannot find any written attribution of ths piece but with the clear pre columbian/peruvian influence there is no doubt its dresser and he designed it 135 years ago but he most prob stole the design from an antique vessel................it could almost be a piece of linthorpe/ault.......special.....
i think its the nicest piece of glass ive seen on here for ages.......:)
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sorry, but how can you say
'ive gone through all my dresser reference and cannot find any written attribution of ths piece but with the clear pre columbian/peruvian influence there is no doubt its dresser' ?
Has there been a reference source with primary sources that identify some of the Webb bronze glass pieces as being designed by Dresser?
Even if there has, without a specific pattern and reference to Dresser to back it up, it could have been designed by anyone 'after Dresser' surely?
m
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dresser designed for webb thats a given and with the obvious peruvian design to the piece it can only be dresser unless of corse you know another designer who designed for webb and was influenced by pre columbian/peruvian art................
i would love to know who you might have in mind apart from dresser.............anyone????
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I don't have anyone else in mind.
I am just wary that once someone has designed something, others could follow with similar designs if they had proved popular.
Do you have a reference for Dresser designing for Webb please? I've not been able to find a conclusive one.
thanks :)
m
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i dont have any specific reference in black and white for dresser and webb but i think its been proven by more knowledgable peeps than me that he did......
i very much doubt that webb would allow someone just to knock out copies of someone elses designs esp dressers just because they could i doubt webb was run that way and i would take a punt with every penny at my disposal (37p)that thats a piece of webb bronze designed by Dr C Dresser in the pre columbian/peruvian style......................
thats just from a pure arts crafts dealers opinion i would happily state dresser no probs at all.
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In addition to my comment above
this link to a comment on Collectors Weekly includes a response from Christopher Morley to a request for information on a Webb Bronze Glass piece.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/56225-detail-pictures-sof-thomas-webb-and-sons-b
A large part of his reply to the request is copied and pasted on that site so please click the link to see more information, however within that information he says
'.....Several shapes of Webb's bronze glass are, in my opinion, distinctly Dresser like and unlikely to have originated with anybody other than Dresser.'
m
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Something's are just designed in such a way in all things that attribution can be given when all others are discounted,due to the design and design only,as dresser was I think the most influenced by pre Colombian/Peruvian arts in that period of time when this was made then with the design being so influenced by peruvian art it has too be by him and if not i won't be persuaded otherwise unless he comes back and haunts me telling me different............
I think the V&A had some bronze ware in there dresser exhibition so maybes they will be able to give the link between Webb and dresser in more detail but based on all I know its dresser............
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I might be wrong, but I thought the Thomas Webb pattern books were in the Broadfield House museum as they looked something up for me in the pattern books when I was there last year? Surely if Dresser had designed for Thomas Webb someone would have dug out the proof?
When I do a google search there is mention of a book in the Corning about Antique Glass by Charles Hajdamach that comes up on searches for using both Christopher Dresser and Thomas Webb in a search bar. However there is no info in my few books or on the web that uses this book as a resource for stating Christopher Dresser designed bronze glass for Thomas Webb.
And so far I have found nothing definitive that uses primary sources from pattern books or original documentation stating this conclusively.
Of course it may well turn out to be true - but there is no documentary proof as far as I can see.
m
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On the site I linked to above ( http://www.christopherdresser.co.uk/articles/Reform_and_Eastern_art/Reform_and_Eastern_art.html) for Christopher Dresser it does state
'Dresser had been invited to serve as a ceramics juror at Philadelphia, in 1876, but declined because of his preparations to visit Japan, however he did serve as a wallpaper juror at Paris in 1878. Clearly the international recognition of both his 'ceramic' and his 'wallpaper' expertise was well established. This was not his only achievement for he noted that:
'Eleven manufacturers engaged in eleven different branches of manufacture showed my designs at the last Paris Exhibition, and ten of these got gold medals and the other silver.' 25.
Amongst the English firms who had produced Dresser designs and who exhibited at Paris were:
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Messrs. Thomas Webb & Sons winners of the Grand Prix, which 'was not awarded for purity of metal only; it was for cutting, and engraving, and designing on crystal glass.'FIG.16 The Art Journal of 1878 noticed that 'Other glass is pure in colour, but the finest British flint glass has a brilliancy that appears nowhere else.' They also exhibited Bronze glass for the first time. FIG.17
.......'
It is a source that states Thomas Webb produced Christopher Dresser designs.
It does not state that he designed the Bronze glass.
m
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They might be I couldn't say I'm not really interested in Webb more dresser and the arts and crafts movement and on design of that piece of glass my instinct says dresser............as said any other thoughts on designer or anyone close would be of interest.
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Sorry I don't have any thoughts on who might be another designer.
I've just checked the Victorian website and under designs for Glass by Christopher Dresser it does not state Thomas Webb and there are no examples of Bronze glass that I could see.
The link is here and the typewritten list of areas he designed for is clickable so one can click on glass and see further information
http://www.victorianweb.org/art/design/dresser/index.html
This is a link to a number of sets of photos of display of Christopher Dresser pieces including on page 3 many in the British Museum display.
I couldn't see any on the three pages that were Webb Bronze Glass - only Couper glass
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bolckow/sets/72157626630545589/detail/
m
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We' re seeing a riift here. if you can prove it is Webb that would be great. You can then say ' possibly by Dresser' . But if the connection cannot be made on paper, then it isn' t there. It doesn't alter the fact that is it a wondrful item of great intest and some value. It is better not to skip steps when attributing ;-)
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Can't help myself Ivo,I'm a jumper inner.........
In my opinion it must be by dresser until someone comes up with better.........:)
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But you may not assume it is what your hunch tells you. Prove it and we' ll all applaude and congratulate you!
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Great discussion here.... and this is exactly the reason I posted this wonderful piece of glass. I have seen it attributed to Dresser, as if it were documented somewhere, but alas it does not (at least so far) appear it is.
I agree with Ivo and M in that it can be "attributed to" or in the "manner of" Dresser based on the design similarities and fairly distinctive design....
But what I am looking for is to see if there is something to remove the doubt as to the designer, to be able to say confidently "This is an example of a Dresser design for Webb from the Bronze line....
As a researcher in my own area of glass, I understand all too well that this may never happen. I also understand that there are ways to make links that may not specifically spell it out, but are solid enough to arrive at a solidly based conclusion as a result of reasonable empirical evidence....
I thank all for the input thus far....
It is a very interesting little object if I do say so!!
Craig
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Tis beautiful!!!